Talk:Archetype/Archive 2

The following is a list and description of each archetype. can you explain what an archetype is on the page (or put an external link to wikipedia there) because i and i'm sure many other people have no idea what that is.-- Semaj draehs - Talk page - 21:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Kain/Abel Archetypes
Who put Oscar in the Kain Archetype and Kieran in the Abel Archetype? In general, I thought that the Abel was the Green Knight and Kain was the Red Knight. (Camtech075 23:41, September 25, 2009 (UTC))

FE Archetypes
Am I the only one who's noticed that Paola from FE 1 starts a trend? I mean after her there's Yuno, Fiora, Syrene, and Sigrun. These characters should qualify as a new archetype. With the prerequisites being that the character must be of the Pegasus knight or Falkoknight class and have a connection with the other two Peg knights the player is usually given. (PrincessOfSwords 22:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC))

I think the pegesus sisters themselves are an archetype. After all, pegesus knights always come in threes and they always seem to be close.--Otherarrow 00:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Thats a good point. I was kinda disappointed that there were no pegasus sisters in FE 4. You got Ferry in the first half then Phee or Femina in the second half depending on weather or not you paired Furry and Levin. Also can you use the triangle attack in Radiant Dawn? It's hard to tell because when the army splits you've got Sigrun and Tanith in one and Marcia in the other. (PrincessOfSwords 04:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC))

Many of these need to go.
Doga - Knights have high defense? Some of them join early? Not really a meaningful archetype.

Julian - Thieves have high Speed and often join early? Same problem as with Doga. In addition, Chad and Julian actually have good growth rates.

Saji and Maji - Maji has worse Skill growth than Saji, and in FE1 he had better HP growth. Ward has a better Skill growth than Lot. Bartre has better Speed growth than Dorcas. The archetype is right that Fighters often come in pairs (There's an FE5 pair as well), but the information on stats here is just so wrong. Also note that Saji and Maji were part of a trifecta with Barts rather than simply a pair.

Sirius - Basically, a promoted unit that stays fairly good the entire game. Way, way, way too expansive. This archetype, if it listed everyone that went by that description and was not a Gato, could easily be the size of all characters in all other archetypes combined.

Nabarl - Guy is the only one listed with a relation to the "Julian." I think almost every Myrmidon or Swordmaster ever has low Strength but high Skill/Speed, so this doesn't seem like a meaningful archetype either.

Oguma - The reason their growths are usually "balanced" is that most of them are mediocte. Excellent starting stats, though. Oguma and Dieck join in the second chapters of their game, not in the middle. And Zihark doesn't work well in this archetype even if it is kept.

Kain and Abel - I would keep this one, but note that of the original Kain and Abel, that was just the way they started out. Their growth rates reversed the situation later on.

Jaffar as a Gato doesn't really work either.

Summary: A lot of these archetypes are either expressing things that basically everyone in that class also demonstrates, and many others don't really work even by their own criteria. MagusII 03:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm no expert on the fandom, but Nabarl deserves a mention for his creation of the Myrmidon class, and the fact that several myrmidon fit personality wise. Sirius could use some simplification, maybe a promoted unit (or just a paladin if you want to narrow it down) that joins middle to late game and is better than/same as the Jeigan stat wise? Oh, and I never got Jaffar as a Gato either.--Otherarrow 04:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually Ayra from FE 4 started the Myrmidon class. Nabarl was a hero. (PrincessOfSwords 04:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC))

Yes, but Nabarl (who, might I remind everyone that he was a Mercenary), with his Kill Sword and basic appearance that most myrmidons seem to carry, inspired that class.--Otherarrow 10:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Made some changes. MagusII 04:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I personally think that Jaffar is a Gato. He's pre-promoted, has great stats, and joins late (Chapter 26x, at the earliest). Seems to follow teh trend. I'd also like to nominate Myrrh for to be a Gato. Although she doesn't have great stats at first, she becomes a goddess by lvl. 20. Darth Anathema 21:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Neither of them join endgame,Jaffar isn't strong enough to be a Gato, and like you said, Myrrh has to be trained. Gatos join the at Final chapter or at least one before and have high starting stats, to the point that they can make up for an untrained team. The people you mentioned don't match enough conditions.--Otherarrow 21:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure, Jaffar is said to be almost godlike and myrth can kill most units.

-- Semaj draehs - any replies to my Talk page  21:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

If Jaffar is godlike, than Athos, who is a perfect example, is the ruler of the Multiverse. They don't join late enough, Jaffar is outshined if you promote Matthew or Legault, and as noted Myrrh needs to be trained first. I have nothing against Myrrh or Jaffar, but they are not Gatos--Otherarrow 22:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I'm buying this Nina Archetype either. It seems entirely story-based, whereas the others have some at least common gameplay component. And is there any reason why Marth, Ellis, and a metric ton of FE4 characters wouldn't qualify as well? MagusII 00:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Like Colm said, it is an archetype of the story. Also,the other archetypes you mentioned are either too vague (Marth's would be just all the lords and Marich's would be everyone in a mage hat...er...every mage.) or too specific (Most of the Seisen no Keifu characters would get about only 2 definite-no-debate hits anyway. Although you do have a point on whether or not story archetypes count.--Otherarrow 04:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

That wasn't what I meant, sorry if it wasn't clear. I'm not seeing why Marth, Ellis, and various FE4 characters would not qualify as part of the "Nina" archetype.MagusII 05:18, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, alright...Well, Marth's biggest problem against this is the reason most lords are not Ninas: he is a guy. I can see Ellis working though (perhaps with Marth as a note like Ephraim is to Eirika), and I can see several of the FE4 cast. If you believe they fit the archetype then add them.--Otherarrow 09:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

If gender can make or break whether a character fits the archetype, I would suggest that the qualifications for being in it are rather superficial. And for what it's worth, Guinevere in FE6 doesn't quite fit the qualifications, but her general role in the story seems like she would be in this category, if we keep it.MagusII 19:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes well, you have a point. So is it even an archetype at all? If we keep oth genders then we have about 50 or so characters. I now think that the archetype is a bit too, what is the word, broad.--Otherarrow 20:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Nina Archetype
The Nina Archetype IS a storyline componet. Thusly it's a storyline Archetype... so that arguement is contradictatory...

And Jaffar is no Gados...

If story stuff alone is sufficient to make an archetype section, we might as well make a "Marth" archetype for main Lords who are boringly heroic or something. And a "Clarine" for annoying staff chick. And a "Garnef" for evil magical villain dude. The FE series tends to repeat story elements and character personalities quite a bit, and there's just too many of those to list them all and still have this article mean much.MagusII 05:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Est Archetype
I would probably remove Amelia. Because she enters the game in the first half of the game(chapter 9). I would have to consider Zeiss, because he enters your party in level 16 at an unpromoted level 7. I understand the fact that he has very high strength and defense for his level, but he does fit the archetype. Teh Pwnerer 01:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Sophia is a better example than Zeiss, the archetype is about units who start out rather weak late game and if you train them up, they become powerful. Zeiss is pretty good when he starts and does not need the time to train that most Ests do.--Otherarrow 02:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but Zeiss (a) joins late in the game, (b) is a very low level for the time he is recruited (as stated in the archetype description, and (c) can become very powerful. I understand he's already strong, but he fulfills the criteria. Also, other games have more than one example. Amelia and Ewan are both listed, and they were both FE8. Teh Pwnerer 05:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, what counts as "late-game" to qualify as an Est? Because Est herself joins in Chapter 18 of 25, Nino joins 26/30, and Amelia 9/21 and Ewan 12/21. Darth Anathema 21:04, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * PErhaps at least later half of the game, I would think. Amelia and Ross are out, but eh.--Otherarrow 21:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Kain & Abel
In FE6, Lance wore green and Alan red. The archetype says in FE9 the trend was reversed. I'm not sure much about FE8 and their cavaliers, so... I think somebody more qualified than me could edit. Teh Pwnerer 05:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Nabarl
How is this even an archetype. I wolud guess that 99% of myrmidons have high speed and skill growths with low strength growths. Also, if it is an archetpye, how doesn't Fir fit the qualifications? Teh Pwnerer 05:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Marisa or Zihark, maybe? 71.207.87.185 00:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Zealot
Well, even though Zealot comes in chapter 7, his growths are just SO BAD that he should be included. I believe that Ofiaye joined around the same point in Seisen no Keifu. Teh Pwnerer 02:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oifaye is a special case, as he comes at the beginning of the second generation. Other than that, Zealot's bad stats do not make him a Jag...Jeigen.--Otherarrow 23:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

missing the fighters
fighters coming in pairs is some sort of archetype and I think it should be added, (its kind of like the pegasus sisters)

-- Semaj draehs - any replies to my Talk page  19:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The Bord and Cord? I removed them because people were complaining that they were not notable enough.--Otherarrow 20:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Well I believe they are an archetype no matter what anyone else says, I suggest you put them back in, but its up to you. -- Semaj draehs - any replies to my Talk page  20:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Does Ayra fit the Nabarl Archetype? And is the Cain/Abel archetypes correct?
I've been sort of questioning Ayra being included in the Nabarl archetype. She IS a myrmidon (sort of), but she lacks the killing edge/other high crit sword the archetype requires... I guess I could understand her bending the rules a bit though.

Also I don't understand the Abel and Cain archetype. In FE1, Abel starts with higher skill, speed, and weapon skill, but grows higher strength, and weapon skill than Cain only. Cain starts with higher strength,and luck than Abel, but grows more HP, Skill, Speed, and Luck than Abel. This carries on in FE3, their base stats are the same but Abel grows more HP than Cain and Cain grows more weapon skill.

I don't know, the Cain and Abel archetypes are really confusing.

--Special:Contributions/I Miss You 12:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You could make a case for Ira's inclustion because of her Astra skill (I am not sure if there are killer weapons in Seisen no Keifu...) As for Cain and Abel, I am not sure. Does this mean that they were switched for FE3 book 2? (Cain being a Abel and Abel a Cain?)--Otherarrow 21:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That clears things up a bit with Ayra. I forgot FE4 doesn't have a Crit value, meaning Killer weapons would be sort of pointless. (Unless they gave you the crit skill, which still wouldn't help if said unit had low skill.)


 * Also I'm not counting Book 2, simply because Abel is a prepromote and Kain is not. This give's Abel an obvious boost in most stats. (He would be lolfail if they left his stats the same and just promoted him.)
 * The archetype as a whole is hard to explain... generally the Green knight grows more of the "manly" stats (Strength, Defense, HP, Build) while the Red Knight gains more of the "graceful" stats (Speed, Skill, Luck, Magic/Resistance) This was only switched in FE6 where Allen was more like Abel base and growth wise and Lance was more like Cain. I was thinking the descriptions of the Abel and Cain archetypes should be switched.--Special:Contributions/I Miss You 05:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * (cough)Made actual account.(cough)--I Miss You 23:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The only Abels listed that have higher Strength and Defense growths, and so forth is Abel. It's the same thing with Kain. In all the other games where there is an obvious Kain/Abel (FE4, 6, 7, and 8), the base stats match their growths. I'd suggest a more appropriate classification. Kains have higher strength and defense, and in the Japan-only games wore red armour while wearing green in the English games. Abels have higher speed and skill, and in the Japan-only games wore green armour while wearing red in the English games. The Kains are: Kain, Noish, Alan, Sain, and Kyle, while the Abels are: Abel, Alec, Lance, Kent, and Forde. --IceFenrir 00:37, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Let's make the changes then.--Otherarrow 00:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

zeiss and oujay
I was wondering, do you think that Zeiss and Oujay from Fire Emblem 6 are considered to be Est and Ogma archetypes? I was thinking of including these characters for several reasons. Oujay growths rates are evenly distributed like Ogma and his fellow mercenary Dieck (although when compared to Dieck, he ends up with higher speed and luck). Zeiss starts out at level 7 in chapter 16. He appears weak at first since he is very low level and his stats are quite low, but with great stat growths (as well as Hard Mode bonuses), he turns out to be one of the best units in the game. Too bad I consider Sophia to be one of the worst Ests in history.--Dark Paladin X 17:23, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Archer Archetype
Hey, I'm just a fan of this wiki and have made contributions (I have also debated getting a wikia account) and I was wondering, I've noticed that there always seems to be a weak archer with a lot of potential that joins in the beginning of the game, i.e. Gordin, Rebecca and Rolf, maybe a new archetype should be added for these? Gordin and Rolf become great, if not good snipers, something that seems to be held in common for many of the games. Just something I wanted to point out.

You're right. I'll add that in. (Camtech075 23:46, September 25, 2009 (UTC))

Enemy Archtype
Hardin, Alvis, Zephiel, Lyon, Nergal all start out as good people and were later corrupted (by the darksphere, Manfloy, father trying to kill him, Sacred Stone, quintessence respectively). Isn't this an archtype of some kind?

-- Semaj draehs - any replies to my Talk page  16:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

New archetype: the Levn?
I've noticed there's often a character posing as a simple traveler who joins early or mid-game, and is later revealed to be royalty, or otherwise of plot-critical heritage. Commonly, but not neccesarily, a bard.

Examples:
 * Levn (FE4)
 * Elphin (FE6)
 * Nils and Ninian (FE7)
 * Joshua (FE8)
 * L'arachel (FE8)
 * Kurth (FE10)

Would this qualify as an archetype?

--Everzwijn 16:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see why it wouldn't be. It does seem to be a recurring character type--Otherarrow 17:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

RE: Levn?
Would Matthew qualify for that, assuming it became classified as an archetype? He joins the Lyndis Leagion early in game under the guise of a common thief, but later reveals that he works as a spy for house Ostia, one of the most powerful regions in the Lycean League. Just a suggestion. Sen Toshi - 23:41, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. He may be more important that we thought but he's not really that important to the plot. (Camtech075 23:43, September 25, 2009 (UTC))

I'd argue that that could be open to interpretation. Working as a spy for house Ostia, he's at least related in some obscure way(socially) to the nobles there. Like Marcus with Eliwood, he seems to be Hector's "right hand man" in some ways. His fiancee is involved in the plot serving as a primary source of information without which the plot might never have progressed past the invasion of Caelin. She later dies. Assuming Matthew is still alive, he mourns and buries her. If he's dead, he is mentioned and she is buried beside him. Depending on how strict you would want to be with the guidelines for this archetype, he may or may not be eligible for inclusion. Sen Toshi - 23:49, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Good point, but just because Leila is plot-important doesn't mean that he is. I don't care either way, but I don't think he should count. (Camtech075 23:53, September 25, 2009 (UTC))