Talk:Archetype/Archive 2

The following is a list and description of each archetype.

For previous discussions, see the Archive

Explain
can you explain what an archetype is on the page (or put an external link to wikipedia there) because i and i'm sure many other people have no idea what that is.-- Semaj draehs - Talk page - 21:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Limstella?
Would Limstella qualify as an Ephidel Archetype?1337 B33FC4K3 04:32, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

I would say no, since she doesn't manipulated anybody. --Fabsu93 14:50, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Nyna Archetype.
Shouldn't Ephraim and Erikia be on the list?

Erikia-

1) Princess of Invaded country.

2) Escapes from the palace while her father gets killed.

3) Only her and her brother survies the invasion.

4) Invasion of her country orgainised by Lyon (While posessesed by Formotiis)

5) Playable.

Ephraim-

1) Prince of Invaded country. (Yeah, not a girl, but still)

2) He does not technically escape, as he was in Grado when the invasion started, but escaped from being captured by Valter in Chapter 5x

3) Only he and his sister survives the invasion.

4) As above, Lyon organised the invasion.

5) Playable.

Also, both of them are Lords, which is different (classes wise) to most of the others in the Archetype (Nyna- Bishop, Ira- Sword Fighter, Guinevere- Sage and Elincia- Princess Crimea) Though they have the same class as each other.

There is a time for all things, and the end of a thing is better then the beginning. 16:43, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1. Doesn't need to be playable.


 * 2. "If we include Eirika and Ephraim, we will be including characters like Marth, Ike, and soforth." A similar point was brought up a while ago. Click this link and read what Otherarrow said: --Thenewguy34 18:46, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Shiida
Is there any reason that the princess of a country that's been invaded but not always the main country who (generally) joins early to mid-game, has a love interest with another noble, (generally the main character), and for some reason, always has long blue hair? Like:
 * Shiida to Marth (FE1/3/11/12)
 * Lilina to Roy (FE6)
 * Lyn to Eliwood/Hector (FE7)
 * Tana to Ephraim (FE8)
 * Lucia (FE9/10, though she never marries but still is a noble and also follows the hair factor)?

Is this coincidential? --Thenewguy34 19:12, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Ogma and Narbal fitting?
20:47, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't Savor from FE2 qualify as an Ogma, since Savor is hired to joined the main character's army and he's a Mercenary also like Omga did in FE1/11.
 * And Deen from FE2 and Samto from FE3/12 qualify as a Nabarl. Since they're both recruitable swordman enemies and they did work at an antagonistic type job and be recruited to the main character's army afterward like Narbal in FE1/11?

Mostyn
I don't think Helman belongs because Helman originally tried to have Eliwood and Hector killed before he told them to go to Laus. --Thenewguy34 10:46, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Nyna
Wait, why did we remove Nyna's archetype again? --Thenewguy34 23:13, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally, I felt it applied to too few people. The only characters who truly fit, at least as I saw it, were Nyna and Guinevere, the others being awkwardly wedged into it. Not to mention if we made the definition broader, just about every Lord character would fit the archetype, and most of those Lords didn't really have much in common besides the whole "being run out of their country" thing. I hope I am making sense.--Otherarrow 00:00, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should remove them, I think we should just keep it, we do know Ira and Elincia is the Princess of the Invaded Country also and most of their growths and personality most of them are the same too. I think remove this archtype is way too vagued. 00:43, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * A poll here on the talk page will accomplish nothing. As for personality wise, the only ones who are similar are Nyna, Guinevere, and maybe Elincia. But having similar growths? Just about everyone in the archetype was a different class! Not to mention, I do recall this archetype in particular being one where just about every entry had some excuse as to why it didn't fit the norm in some way. That is not a good sign.--Otherarrow 01:41, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Bastian
I think Bastian from FE9/10 qualifies as a Norma, since he matches most of the requirements. While he has higher base stats than other Normas, so does Saleh as well.

Potential Pegasus Archetype?
I do wonder if we can pull off an archetype of pegasus units (originally from a group of mercenaries or serving from country) who joins your at first small ranks. I've been wondering that if we rewired the conditions a bit, if we could pull this off.

So far, I have:


 * Palla/Catria? (FE/3/12, I'm not sure if they even qualify or not)
 * Thany (FE6)
 * Florina (FE7)?
 * Vanessa (FE8)
 * Marcia (FE9)

If we are capable of pulling this off, it will need a lot of work. I will continue to look into it and see if it can work. --Thenewguy34 00:35, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * This seems to be "Pegasus Knight who joins first, is usually also one of the three Pegasus Sisters". Is that really a distinct enough thing? I dunno. Palla and Catria are out, as they join mid-game in 1, but might count for 3. The rest join early, I guess. Since the current write up seems to exclusively list units who are also members of the Pegasus Trio archetype already, I do wonder if this isn't already covered by that? Would Karin or Shiida count? Or does them not being part of a mercenary force exclude them? (Then again, Vanessa isn't a merc or from Renais either.)--Otherarrow 00:57, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

"Pegasus Knight who joins first, is usually also one of the three Pegasus Sisters". This archetype is not exclusive to the first pegasus knight, though it often is. This archetype isn't exclusive to just those units.

This is supposed to represent pegasus units who join your small ranks from a mercenary squad or from country (not exclusive to the first pegasus knight or from Pegasus Sisters, though they often are). That factor already puts in Thany, Vanessa, and Marcia, but I'm not sure if Palla or Catria fit or not, as I never played FE3/12. As for FE7, I think the fact that Florina might fit because of how she searches for Lyn when she learns that Lyn departed for Caelin (I think Florina wanted to help her out, so that's why I'm giving her a shot). As for Shiida, no, but for Karin, I don't know, as I never played FE5. Does she join your small ranks from a mercenary squad/country, and also is overshadowed by units that come later?

Also, statwise, these units are overshadowed by other aerial units that join later (forgot to add that earlier). This explains Thany (overshadowed by Thite and Miledy), Florina (overshadowed by Farina and arguably Fiora), Vanessa (overshadowed by Tana and Cormag, and Marcia (overshadowed by Jill).

If I'm a bit difficult to understand, I can shorten this down to the requirements and the units who I think fit. --Thenewguy34 10:07, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's see, Vanessa isn't from a mercenary squad, nor is she from the country of the heroes. (Eirika is from Renais. Vanessa is from Frelia.) So she is out. That leaves Marcia, Florina, and Thany. If I recall correctly, Marcia is regarded as one of the better flyers in both games, superior to Tanith and Sigrun. Also, I wouldn't say Vanessa is overshadowed by Tana. Maybe by Cormag. Tana requiring some babying does count against her in my book. So that leaves Thany and Florina. I think this is one of those cases where you tried too hard to make is distinct, but ended up ruling out most of your proposed members by accident.--Otherarrow 13:44, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Vanessa out? I said that they join either from mercenary squad or from country: I never specified what specific country they have to be in. If Vanessa was out for that reason, the whole proposed archetype would cease to exist. Also, I was talking about Marcia from FE9, not FE10, because most people take Jill for her defensive capabilities in FE9. So Vanessa and Marcia are still in. --I&#39;m trying to run expansion projects, read such content on my profile. 19:34, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * If that is your definition, then "from country" doesn't mean anything. Every character is from a country. And Marcia isn't completely outclassed by Jill either. Even if she does not have Jill's defensive capabilities, Marcia still considered better than Tanith, the other Falcon Knight you get. Also, Vanessa is still arguably out, because her being overshadowed by Tana and Cormag is a "your mileage may vary" thing. (I personally feel Cormag does, but Tana doesn't, if only because Tana needs babying to be at Vanessa's level)--Otherarrow 20:12, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

I meant originally served country before joining, but it appears that you keep dismissing the proposed archetype. Ah, well. It was worth a shot to try to find an archetype without saying "every cavalier that's not Cain nor Abel" or "every promoted unit with ridiculously high growth rates." --I&#39;m trying to run expansion projects, read such content on my profile. 23:10, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll be a bit honest here, I still don't know what you actually mean. Originally served country before joining? So they served a country before joining the player's army? That covers every pegasus knight who isn't a mercenary, and arguably, some who are (like the Ilian Pegasus Knights, or Misha, though she doesn't fit this anyway). Also, notably, that would include Sheeda, only I am not sure if the Whitewings out class her. The availability thing might steer things in Sheeda's favor though. Also, bolding words doesn't make them easier to understand. If you bold something that people will misunderstand your meaning (such as in this case), they will still misunderstand it. Sorry for any trouble.--Otherarrow 15:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Miriel and Richt
I'd like to suggest that Richt be put into the Merric category and Miriel moved into the Wendell category, seeing as Richt fits the 'young, early-joining, usually male mage' theme a lot better than Miriel, who happens to be his mentor, like Wendell is to Merric, Pent to Erk, Saleh to Ewan etc. I know not too much is known about the game right now, but this much seems obvious to me. Am I right or amirite? --Further up, further in... 23:40, April 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * For one, Miriel is not a promoted unit, and actually joins before Richt. Also, I am not sure if Miriel is actually Richt's mentor, as neither of their profiles mention it, and I haven't played the game yet.--Otherarrow 01:26, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Marisa as a Narbal??
"A Nabarl is a character that is usually a myrmidon and usually appears early in the game as a recruitable enemy. Often carries a Killing Edge, or a similar weapon with a high critical rate. They tend to have high skill and speed growths, but poor strength growths. They are often believed to be worth the effort of recruiting. Lore wise, they usually have some relationship with the Lena or Julian character and have a warrior's spirit, hold some kind of code or policy, and are known to take chances. Before they join the player's party, they may have served as a mercenary for bandits. Like Ogmas, they usually fade into obscurity after the war is over." Quoting artical on Archetype page.

Marisa has high speed and skill growths (Along with HP) with a low strength growth. She starts as a Myrmidon and she served as a mercenary under the Ogma archetype in the Game (Gerik), and she is determined to be better then her father, another swordfighter, she is a very good unit, starts out with a shamsir (which has a high crit rate), is a recruitable money, and can support with Clom. The only differences are that she joins mid game, and not early game, and does not fade into obscurity after the war (But neither does Joshua). Does she count as a Narbal? There is a time for all things, and the end of a thing is better then the beginning. 16:00, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Marisa is already counted as a Nabarl.--Otherarrow 16:06, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Possible characters from Gaiden fit to the list?
-- 21:41, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't Zeke (Camus) from FE2 qualify as an Lorenz, since Zeke is a new General of Rigel and a Recruitable enemy in FE2.
 * Maisen from FE2 as a Gotoh. Since he's recruitment was after defeating Rudolf in Chapter 4 and that part was really near to the Final Chapter?
 * And should we count Geyse as a Michalis also?
 * Isn't Maisen already a Gotoh? Or is he too weak to qualify? Also, I wouldn't be trying to bend over backwards to fit Gaiden in with alot of the Archetypes, since most of them weren't established as recurring things until 3 or 4. Unbulit trope and all that.--Otherarrow 22:06, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

I think Maisen might qualify as a Gotoh since they count as recruited very late and near the end of the game. I think I'll just put it in. 02:39, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Do any of the Kakusei children characters count as Ests?
Do any of them possess Est-like characteristics? --Thenewguy34( Other ) 17:05, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * From what I have seen? No. The children maybe, but you can get them any time after Lucina joins as long as their parents are hooked up (though I think access to Warm is also requried for some). All the SpotPass characters are promoted and high level.--Otherarrow 20:46, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Mostyn Archetype
Mostyn was the king of Talys and an ally of Marth's. When Marth started his journey, Mostyn provided Marth with additional allies, including his daughter, Sheeda. Since then, in almost every game, there is always a monarch or ruler whose country is allied with the main character's country. They usually aid the main character early in the game (sometimes mid-game or late-game). They provide the player with additional units, money, and supplies. In addition, they have family members who also join the player's army. In later games, these rulers also join the player's army. 75.31.110.102 00:04, July 20, 2012 (UTC)agarfinkel75.31.110.102 00:04, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Mostyn (FE1/11)
 * King of Aurelis(FE1/3/11/12)
 * Calf(FE4)
 * Rahna(FE4)
 * Mordred(FE6)
 * Uther(FE7)
 * Hayden(FE8)
 * Ismaire(FE8)
 * Mansel(FE8)
 * Caineghis(FE9/10)
 * Sanaki(FE9/10)
 * Tibarn(FE9/10)
 * Naesala(FE9/10)
 * Nailah(FE10)
 * Basilio(FE13)
 * Flavia(FE13)


 * The first time, it was dismissed due to lack of clarity. This time, it appears to be more clear, though I am not sure if this is one or not.--Thenewguy34( Other ) 11:38, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Arrogant Archer Archetype??
Hey everyone, one thing I've noticed in a few of the Fire Emblem games is that there are a lot of archers (mainly snipers) who join usually in the middle of the game who tend to be quite arrogant and stuck up. Innes (FE8) and Shinon (FE9/10) are the two I'm most familliar with. (That being said, the only Fire Emblem I've played are FE7, FE8 FE9, and FE11). I don't recall any other snipers like that from Shadow Dragon or FE7, but that doesn't mean that there aren't more out there. Rath from Fire Emblem 7 isn't really the arrogant/stuck-up type, but he is very quiet, much like the other two.

I know this isn't a very supported idea, but hey, no idea's a bad idea, right? Well, tell me what you guys think... *fingers crossed*

JTA777 (talk) 01:07, October 14, 2012 (UTC)JTA777
 * Actually, I think Innes and Shinon are the only ones who fit that. So no dice. Sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:22, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Sniper Archetype?
I know that Jeorge is part of an archetype, but is he part of another archetype as well? By this I mean a Sniper who joins the team with a powerful bow, mainly a silver bow. For members of this archetype, I think of Jeorge, Briggid, Klein, Louise, Innes and Shinon. I don't know about Gaiden or Tharcia 776, but these character types appear in many of the games. I'm wondering if this should be made official or not, I'd really like to hear some opinions. Fargo294 (talk) 02:48, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if "prepromoted Sniper with a Silver Bow" is a thing we could get away with. It seems too general.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:04, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is my version of this archetype: a pre-promoted sniper who comes equipped with powerful bow; usually, but not always, comes from a wealthy or noble family, since they sometimes join the player's army with an item that can be sold for a lot of money; and they can also develop some type of relationship with the character belonging to the Gordin archetype of the game they appear in (for instance, Jeorge becomes Gordin's teacher, Briggid can be paired with Jamka, Louise can have two support conversations with Rebecca, and Shinon is Rolf's teacher. Also, just saying, the reason I believe Jeorge is not part of the archetype he is already in (the one with Levin in it) is because, unlike the other people in that archetype, he does not hide the fact he is a noble and he does not play an important role in the story. --agarfinkel


 * Jeorge (FE1/3/11/12)
 * Briggid (FE4, first generation)
 * Klein (FE6)
 * Louise (FE7)
 * Innes (FE8)
 * Shinon (FE9/10)


 * Not a bad idea!Countess Reglay (talk) 23:26, October 29, 2012 (UTC)Countess Reglay


 * I forgot to mention who is in the list:

--Agarfinkel

Medeus
Well hi there, I'm back with the idea of creating a Medeus Archetype^^ This time it looks like this:


 * Medeus (1/3/11/12)
 * Doma (2)
 * Loptyr (4)
 * Idenn (6)
 * Fomortiis (8)
 * Dheginsea (10)
 * Grima (13)

Same arguments as last time: Fierce beasts (mostly dragons) fought at (or in Dheginsea's case, close to) endgame with immunity or high resistance against "unholy" weapons. I kicked Fire Emblem 7's Fire Dragon out cause it has no characterization at all, while I included Loptyr for the reason that he HAS character (despite being a tome). Additionally, they have only minor influence to the main story, but major influence to the back story (Dheginsea for example fought as one of the three heros of Ashera in the past, while doing absolutely nothing in the present). Ashera is noted as being also like this, but for me she looks too "human". The influence Gimle has on the main plot is unknown to me as I want to experience the story of Fire Emblem 13 while playing it (without importing it, I can't read japanese) and thus I want to keep the spoilers I read at a minimum. Veld, Nergal and Ashnard are not part of this despite being final bosses (one riding on a dragon) because they are to active in the main plot, especially Nergal. I really would appreciate it if this would enter "official" status because of how well thought this is (yea, I know, praising oneself sucks). With that, greetings, Nitzudan(talk) http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/meerundmehr/images/7/73/Metroid-Icon3.gif 22:43, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * So it's basically "every dark god/dark dragon villain and Dheginsea is also there for no reason". I'll be honest, I don't see much of a link aside from "obligatory dragon as the final boss", and but that cuts out Doma, Fomortiis, Dheginsea (because he isn't a final boss. Why is he here?) and technically Loptyr. Well, OK, there is the "minor influence" thing...which cuts out Loptyr (controls/influences Yurius throughout the second gen) Fomortiis (possesses or manipulates Lyon, depending on route) and Gimle (is an active force behind Fauder). So with both of those things in account...you have just Idenn and Medeus. No offense, I don't think we should be trying to force an archetype here.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:03, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Tiki
In some of the Fire Emblem games, there is a female manakete who, despite having the appearance and personality of a little girl (even though she is actually way older than she looks), can tranform into a powerful dragon. She is usually a divine dragon or of noble lineage and can become one of your most powerful units. Agarfinkel (talk) 01:30, January 16, 2013 (UTC)agarfinkel
 * Tiki (FE1/3/11/12)
 * Fa (FE6)
 * Myrrh (FE8)
 * Nowi (FE13)
 * Nn (FE13)

So it's basically...every playable Manakete who isn't Bantu or Nagi? This sounds too general, IMO.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:38, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Naesala ?
I wonder if Naesala could be considered as a Michalis in FE9 (though he is recruitable eventually) as he is a minor antagonist looking for power (even if, like Michalis or Trabant it is all for his poeple) and sells his strength to the enemy.

Darckbishop (talk) 17:55, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Panne
Would Panne fit under the Nyna archetype?

The main point of that archetype is "Someone thinking they are the last of there family/kind/group", and Panne is the last Taguel.

76.178.23.40 02:04, February 8, 2013 (UTC)Pecan
 * I am pretty sure the point of the archetype is that the last female royal believes they are the last of their bloodline and that it is up to them to protect their legacy. Panne isn't a royal and doesn't seem to care that she is the last Taguel.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:43, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

"Tactician" Archetype
Reading through the page I got to the Malledus archetype and read through the list. I was expecting to see Marcus for FE7 and 6, but instead the Tactician is listed. Furthermore, the Avatars in the most recent FE games are also listed. I think we've got two different archetypes here...one is for NPCs or playable characters that act as advisors for the lord character, while another is The Player Character, an actual manifest character in a few games. I do not consider these to be the same thing, on one hand you have the Jagan who supports the lord as his older, wiser and experienced advisor, typically a crutch character, fitting that archetype. Marcus is an excellent example of this. But the tactician? He's completely different, not some old battle-hardened paladin but a faceless, silent character whom you're supposed to project yourself into. He doesn't fight, doesn't have any experience or background before the story, and doesn't get the respect most Malledus characters have for their battle experience. Yes he gets some respect for being brilliant, and all the characters idolize him as some great thinker, but he's not the same as the archetype would suggest. I see the recent Avatars in the same way - yes they're the advisors and tacticians, but not in the same way that these other characters are advisors to the lord.

tl;dr Why do we have this archetype? It's just Jagan under a different name isn't it? Either way, Marcus belongs here and the Tactician and Avatars don't imo, they're worlds apart character-wise.RamuneDrink (talk) 07:23, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Mustafa as additional example of Camus?
Mustafa (an enemy general who appears earlier than Yen'fay in Awakening/FE13) seems to fit the archetype quite well: he bears no ill will towards the protagonists (offering to spare them if they surrender peacefully) and has the whole "cares for his men, even offering to let them leave" thing going for him. 129.21.82.175 21:37, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mustafa isn't a major character. He is a one off boss. He isn't even the first sympathetic one off boss in the series (though he is probably the one who they really play up the sympathy for). If we include him, we'd have to include them all, and that would bloat the list to the point where it becomes pointless.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:40, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Second Nyna Archetype
Nyna was in love with Camus, an enemy soldier who saved her life. When she tried to persuade him to stop fighting and to join the player's army, he refused to, mainly because of his loyalty to his country. In nearly every Fire Emblem game, there is a female character (usually playable) who has a family member or a loved one that is part of the Camus archetype in the game they appear in. If the player has her fight them, she will try to persuade them to stop what they are doing. However, the other person, despite not wanting them, refuses to stop fight, mainly because of loyalty towards their country.
 * Nyna (FE1/11)
 * Raquesis (FE4, first generation)
 * Teeny (FE4, second generation)
 * Olwen (FE5)
 * Miledy (FE6)
 * Nino (FE7)
 * Jill (FE9)

--Agarfinkel (talk) 17:05, March 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Do these characters have anything else in common? Friends and lovers on opposing sides is a pretty common thing in war stories. Besides, we already have a Nyna. But yeah, I think this one is a stretch.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:14, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

/*Mudrock*/
A sub archetype to the Camus archetype, Murdocks are usually a General (or similar type of unit or military rank) who hold a certain amount of respect for and from several players units and NPCs, but die in the story nevertheless and may even hold some amount of ill will towards the player.

List of MurdocksEdit
There are others who are considered Murdocks, but this is the generally agreed upon list.
 * Brendan (FE7)
 * Glen (FE8)
 * Bryce (FE9)
 * Dheginsea (FE10)
 * Walhart (FE13)