Talk:Archetype/Archive 2

The following is a list and description of each archetype.

For previous discussions, see the Archive

Explain
can you explain what an archetype is on the page (or put an external link to wikipedia there) because i and i'm sure many other people have no idea what that is.-- Semaj draehs - Talk page - 21:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Limstella?
Would Limstella qualify as an Ephidel Archetype?1337 B33FC4K3 04:32, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

I would say no, since she doesn't manipulated anybody. --Fabsu93 14:50, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Nyna Archetype.
Shouldn't Ephraim and Erikia be on the list?

Erikia-

1) Princess of Invaded country.

2) Escapes from the palace while her father gets killed.

3) Only her and her brother survies the invasion.

4) Invasion of her country orgainised by Lyon (While posessesed by Formotiis)

5) Playable.

Ephraim-

1) Prince of Invaded country. (Yeah, not a girl, but still)

2) He does not technically escape, as he was in Grado when the invasion started, but escaped from being captured by Valter in Chapter 5x

3) Only he and his sister survives the invasion.

4) As above, Lyon organised the invasion.

5) Playable.

Also, both of them are Lords, which is different (classes wise) to most of the others in the Archetype (Nyna- Bishop, Ira- Sword Fighter, Guinevere- Sage and Elincia- Princess Crimea) Though they have the same class as each other.

There is a time for all things, and the end of a thing is better then the beginning. 16:43, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1. Doesn't need to be playable.


 * 2. "If we include Eirika and Ephraim, we will be including characters like Marth, Ike, and soforth." A similar point was brought up a while ago. Click this link and read what Otherarrow said: --Thenewguy34 18:46, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Shiida
Is there any reason that the princess of a country that's been invaded but not always the main country who (generally) joins early to mid-game, has a love interest with another noble, (generally the main character), and for some reason, always has long blue hair? Like:
 * Shiida to Marth (FE1/3/11/12)
 * Lilina to Roy (FE6)
 * Lyn to Eliwood/Hector (FE7)
 * Tana to Ephraim (FE8)
 * Lucia (FE9/10, though she never marries but still is a noble and also follows the hair factor)?

Is this coincidential? --Thenewguy34 19:12, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Ogma and Narbal fitting?
20:47, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't Savor from FE2 qualify as an Ogma, since Savor is hired to joined the main character's army and he's a Mercenary also like Omga did in FE1/11.
 * And Deen from FE2 and Samto from FE3/12 qualify as a Nabarl. Since they're both recruitable swordman enemies and they did work at an antagonistic type job and be recruited to the main character's army afterward like Narbal in FE1/11?

Mostyn
I don't think Helman belongs because Helman originally tried to have Eliwood and Hector killed before he told them to go to Laus. --Thenewguy34 10:46, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Nyna
Wait, why did we remove Nyna's archetype again? --Thenewguy34 23:13, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally, I felt it applied to too few people. The only characters who truly fit, at least as I saw it, were Nyna and Guinevere, the others being awkwardly wedged into it. Not to mention if we made the definition broader, just about every Lord character would fit the archetype, and most of those Lords didn't really have much in common besides the whole "being run out of their country" thing. I hope I am making sense.--Otherarrow 00:00, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should remove them, I think we should just keep it, we do know Ira and Elincia is the Princess of the Invaded Country also and most of their growths and personality most of them are the same too. I think remove this archtype is way too vagued. 00:43, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * A poll here on the talk page will accomplish nothing. As for personality wise, the only ones who are similar are Nyna, Guinevere, and maybe Elincia. But having similar growths? Just about everyone in the archetype was a different class! Not to mention, I do recall this archetype in particular being one where just about every entry had some excuse as to why it didn't fit the norm in some way. That is not a good sign.--Otherarrow 01:41, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Bastian
I think Bastian from FE9/10 qualifies as a Norma, since he matches most of the requirements. While he has higher base stats than other Normas, so does Saleh as well.

Potential Pegasus Archetype?
I do wonder if we can pull off an archetype of pegasus units (originally from a group of mercenaries or serving from country) who joins your at first small ranks. I've been wondering that if we rewired the conditions a bit, if we could pull this off.

So far, I have:


 * Palla/Catria? (FE/3/12, I'm not sure if they even qualify or not)
 * Thany (FE6)
 * Florina (FE7)?
 * Vanessa (FE8)
 * Marcia (FE9)

If we are capable of pulling this off, it will need a lot of work. I will continue to look into it and see if it can work. --Thenewguy34 00:35, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * This seems to be "Pegasus Knight who joins first, is usually also one of the three Pegasus Sisters". Is that really a distinct enough thing? I dunno. Palla and Catria are out, as they join mid-game in 1, but might count for 3. The rest join early, I guess. Since the current write up seems to exclusively list units who are also members of the Pegasus Trio archetype already, I do wonder if this isn't already covered by that? Would Karin or Shiida count? Or does them not being part of a mercenary force exclude them? (Then again, Vanessa isn't a merc or from Renais either.)--Otherarrow 00:57, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

"Pegasus Knight who joins first, is usually also one of the three Pegasus Sisters". This archetype is not exclusive to the first pegasus knight, though it often is. This archetype isn't exclusive to just those units.

This is supposed to represent pegasus units who join your small ranks from a mercenary squad or from country (not exclusive to the first pegasus knight or from Pegasus Sisters, though they often are). That factor already puts in Thany, Vanessa, and Marcia, but I'm not sure if Palla or Catria fit or not, as I never played FE3/12. As for FE7, I think the fact that Florina might fit because of how she searches for Lyn when she learns that Lyn departed for Caelin (I think Florina wanted to help her out, so that's why I'm giving her a shot). As for Shiida, no, but for Karin, I don't know, as I never played FE5. Does she join your small ranks from a mercenary squad/country, and also is overshadowed by units that come later?

Also, statwise, these units are overshadowed by other aerial units that join later (forgot to add that earlier). This explains Thany (overshadowed by Thite and Miledy), Florina (overshadowed by Farina and arguably Fiora), Vanessa (overshadowed by Tana and Cormag, and Marcia (overshadowed by Jill).

If I'm a bit difficult to understand, I can shorten this down to the requirements and the units who I think fit. --Thenewguy34 10:07, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's see, Vanessa isn't from a mercenary squad, nor is she from the country of the heroes. (Eirika is from Renais. Vanessa is from Frelia.) So she is out. That leaves Marcia, Florina, and Thany. If I recall correctly, Marcia is regarded as one of the better flyers in both games, superior to Tanith and Sigrun. Also, I wouldn't say Vanessa is overshadowed by Tana. Maybe by Cormag. Tana requiring some babying does count against her in my book. So that leaves Thany and Florina. I think this is one of those cases where you tried too hard to make is distinct, but ended up ruling out most of your proposed members by accident.--Otherarrow 13:44, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Vanessa out? I said that they join either from mercenary squad or from country: I never specified what specific country they have to be in. If Vanessa was out for that reason, the whole proposed archetype would cease to exist. Also, I was talking about Marcia from FE9, not FE10, because most people take Jill for her defensive capabilities in FE9. So Vanessa and Marcia are still in. --I&#39;m trying to run expansion projects, read such content on my profile. 19:34, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * If that is your definition, then "from country" doesn't mean anything. Every character is from a country. And Marcia isn't completely outclassed by Jill either. Even if she does not have Jill's defensive capabilities, Marcia still considered better than Tanith, the other Falcon Knight you get. Also, Vanessa is still arguably out, because her being overshadowed by Tana and Cormag is a "your mileage may vary" thing. (I personally feel Cormag does, but Tana doesn't, if only because Tana needs babying to be at Vanessa's level)--Otherarrow 20:12, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

I meant originally served country before joining, but it appears that you keep dismissing the proposed archetype. Ah, well. It was worth a shot to try to find an archetype without saying "every cavalier that's not Cain nor Abel" or "every promoted unit with ridiculously high growth rates." --I&#39;m trying to run expansion projects, read such content on my profile. 23:10, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll be a bit honest here, I still don't know what you actually mean. Originally served country before joining? So they served a country before joining the player's army? That covers every pegasus knight who isn't a mercenary, and arguably, some who are (like the Ilian Pegasus Knights, or Misha, though she doesn't fit this anyway). Also, notably, that would include Sheeda, only I am not sure if the Whitewings out class her. The availability thing might steer things in Sheeda's favor though. Also, bolding words doesn't make them easier to understand. If you bold something that people will misunderstand your meaning (such as in this case), they will still misunderstand it. Sorry for any trouble.--Otherarrow 15:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Miriel and Richt
I'd like to suggest that Richt be put into the Merric category and Miriel moved into the Wendell category, seeing as Richt fits the 'young, early-joining, usually male mage' theme a lot better than Miriel, who happens to be his mentor, like Wendell is to Merric, Pent to Erk, Saleh to Ewan etc. I know not too much is known about the game right now, but this much seems obvious to me. Am I right or amirite? --Further up, further in... 23:40, April 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * For one, Miriel is not a promoted unit, and actually joins before Richt. Also, I am not sure if Miriel is actually Richt's mentor, as neither of their profiles mention it, and I haven't played the game yet.--Otherarrow 01:26, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Marisa as a Narbal??
"A Nabarl is a character that is usually a myrmidon and usually appears early in the game as a recruitable enemy. Often carries a Killing Edge, or a similar weapon with a high critical rate. They tend to have high skill and speed growths, but poor strength growths. They are often believed to be worth the effort of recruiting. Lore wise, they usually have some relationship with the Lena or Julian character and have a warrior's spirit, hold some kind of code or policy, and are known to take chances. Before they join the player's party, they may have served as a mercenary for bandits. Like Ogmas, they usually fade into obscurity after the war is over." Quoting artical on Archetype page.

Marisa has high speed and skill growths (Along with HP) with a low strength growth. She starts as a Myrmidon and she served as a mercenary under the Ogma archetype in the Game (Gerik), and she is determined to be better then her father, another swordfighter, she is a very good unit, starts out with a shamsir (which has a high crit rate), is a recruitable money, and can support with Clom. The only differences are that she joins mid game, and not early game, and does not fade into obscurity after the war (But neither does Joshua). Does she count as a Narbal? There is a time for all things, and the end of a thing is better then the beginning. 16:00, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Marisa is already counted as a Nabarl.--Otherarrow 16:06, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Possible characters from Gaiden fit to the list?
-- 21:41, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't Zeke (Camus) from FE2 qualify as an Lorenz, since Zeke is a new General of Rigel and a Recruitable enemy in FE2.
 * Maisen from FE2 as a Gotoh. Since he's recruitment was after defeating Rudolf in Chapter 4 and that part was really near to the Final Chapter?
 * And should we count Geyse as a Michalis also?
 * Isn't Maisen already a Gotoh? Or is he too weak to qualify? Also, I wouldn't be trying to bend over backwards to fit Gaiden in with alot of the Archetypes, since most of them weren't established as recurring things until 3 or 4. Unbulit trope and all that.--Otherarrow 22:06, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

I think Maisen might qualify as a Gotoh since they count as recruited very late and near the end of the game. I think I'll just put it in. 02:39, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Do any of the Kakusei children characters count as Ests?
Do any of them possess Est-like characteristics? --Thenewguy34( Other ) 17:05, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * From what I have seen? No. The children maybe, but you can get them any time after Lucina joins as long as their parents are hooked up (though I think access to Warm is also requried for some). All the SpotPass characters are promoted and high level.--Otherarrow 20:46, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Mostyn Archetype
Mostyn was the king of Talys and an ally of Marth's. When Marth started his journey, Mostyn provided Marth with additional allies, including his daughter, Sheeda. Since then, in almost every game, there is always a monarch or ruler whose country is allied with the main character's country. They usually aid the main character early in the game (sometimes mid-game or late-game). They provide the player with additional units, money, and supplies. In addition, they have family members who also join the player's army. In later games, these rulers also join the player's army. 75.31.110.102 00:04, July 20, 2012 (UTC)agarfinkel75.31.110.102 00:04, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Mostyn (FE1/11)
 * King of Aurelis(FE1/3/11/12)
 * Calf(FE4)
 * Rahna(FE4)
 * Mordred(FE6)
 * Uther(FE7)
 * Hayden(FE8)
 * Ismaire(FE8)
 * Mansel(FE8)
 * Caineghis(FE9/10)
 * Sanaki(FE9/10)
 * Tibarn(FE9/10)
 * Naesala(FE9/10)
 * Nailah(FE10)
 * Basilio(FE13)
 * Flavia(FE13)


 * The first time, it was dismissed due to lack of clarity. This time, it appears to be more clear, though I am not sure if this is one or not.--Thenewguy34( Other ) 11:38, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Arrogant Archer Archetype??
Hey everyone, one thing I've noticed in a few of the Fire Emblem games is that there are a lot of archers (mainly snipers) who join usually in the middle of the game who tend to be quite arrogant and stuck up. Innes (FE8) and Shinon (FE9/10) are the two I'm most familliar with. (That being said, the only Fire Emblem I've played are FE7, FE8 FE9, and FE11). I don't recall any other snipers like that from Shadow Dragon or FE7, but that doesn't mean that there aren't more out there. Rath from Fire Emblem 7 isn't really the arrogant/stuck-up type, but he is very quiet, much like the other two.

I know this isn't a very supported idea, but hey, no idea's a bad idea, right? Well, tell me what you guys think... *fingers crossed*

JTA777 (talk) 01:07, October 14, 2012 (UTC)JTA777
 * Actually, I think Innes and Shinon are the only ones who fit that. So no dice. Sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:22, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Sniper Archetype?
I know that Jeorge is part of an archetype, but is he part of another archetype as well? By this I mean a Sniper who joins the team with a powerful bow, mainly a silver bow. For members of this archetype, I think of Jeorge, Briggid, Klein, Louise, Innes and Shinon. I don't know about Gaiden or Tharcia 776, but these character types appear in many of the games. I'm wondering if this should be made official or not, I'd really like to hear some opinions. Fargo294 (talk) 02:48, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if "prepromoted Sniper with a Silver Bow" is a thing we could get away with. It seems too general.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:04, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is my version of this archetype: a pre-promoted sniper who comes equipped with powerful bow; usually, but not always, comes from a wealthy or noble family, since they sometimes join the player's army with an item that can be sold for a lot of money; and they can also develop some type of relationship with the character belonging to the Gordin archetype of the game they appear in (for instance, Jeorge becomes Gordin's teacher, Briggid can be paired with Jamka, Louise can have two support conversations with Rebecca, and Shinon is Rolf's teacher. Also, just saying, the reason I believe Jeorge is not part of the archetype he is already in (the one with Levin in it) is because, unlike the other people in that archetype, he does not hide the fact he is a noble and he does not play an important role in the story. --agarfinkel


 * Jeorge (FE1/3/11/12)
 * Briggid (FE4, first generation)
 * Klein (FE6)
 * Louise (FE7)
 * Innes (FE8)
 * Shinon (FE9/10)


 * Not a bad idea!Countess Reglay (talk) 23:26, October 29, 2012 (UTC)Countess Reglay


 * I forgot to mention who is in the list:

--Agarfinkel

Medeus
Well hi there, I'm back with the idea of creating a Medeus Archetype^^ This time it looks like this:


 * Medeus (1/3/11/12)
 * Doma (2)
 * Loptyr (4)
 * Idenn (6)
 * Fomortiis (8)
 * Dheginsea (10)
 * Grima (13)

Same arguments as last time: Fierce beasts (mostly dragons) fought at (or in Dheginsea's case, close to) endgame with immunity or high resistance against "unholy" weapons. I kicked Fire Emblem 7's Fire Dragon out cause it has no characterization at all, while I included Loptyr for the reason that he HAS character (despite being a tome). Additionally, they have only minor influence to the main story, but major influence to the back story (Dheginsea for example fought as one of the three heros of Ashera in the past, while doing absolutely nothing in the present). Ashera is noted as being also like this, but for me she looks too "human". The influence Gimle has on the main plot is unknown to me as I want to experience the story of Fire Emblem 13 while playing it (without importing it, I can't read japanese) and thus I want to keep the spoilers I read at a minimum. Veld, Nergal and Ashnard are not part of this despite being final bosses (one riding on a dragon) because they are to active in the main plot, especially Nergal. I really would appreciate it if this would enter "official" status because of how well thought this is (yea, I know, praising oneself sucks). With that, greetings, Nitzudan(talk) http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/meerundmehr/images/7/73/Metroid-Icon3.gif 22:43, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * So it's basically "every dark god/dark dragon villain and Dheginsea is also there for no reason". I'll be honest, I don't see much of a link aside from "obligatory dragon as the final boss", and but that cuts out Doma, Fomortiis, Dheginsea (because he isn't a final boss. Why is he here?) and technically Loptyr. Well, OK, there is the "minor influence" thing...which cuts out Loptyr (controls/influences Yurius throughout the second gen) Fomortiis (possesses or manipulates Lyon, depending on route) and Gimle (is an active force behind Fauder). So with both of those things in account...you have just Idenn and Medeus. No offense, I don't think we should be trying to force an archetype here.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:03, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Tiki
In some of the Fire Emblem games, there is a female manakete who, despite having the appearance and personality of a little girl (even though she is actually way older than she looks), can tranform into a powerful dragon. She is usually a divine dragon or of noble lineage and can become one of your most powerful units. Agarfinkel (talk) 01:30, January 16, 2013 (UTC)agarfinkel
 * Tiki (FE1/3/11/12)
 * Fa (FE6)
 * Myrrh (FE8)
 * Nowi (FE13)
 * Nn (FE13)

So it's basically...every playable Manakete who isn't Bantu or Nagi? This sounds too general, IMO.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:38, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Naesala ?
I wonder if Naesala could be considered as a Michalis in FE9 (though he is recruitable eventually) as he is a minor antagonist looking for power (even if, like Michalis or Trabant it is all for his poeple) and sells his strength to the enemy.

Darckbishop (talk) 17:55, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Panne
Would Panne fit under the Nyna archetype?

The main point of that archetype is "Someone thinking they are the last of there family/kind/group", and Panne is the last Taguel.

76.178.23.40 02:04, February 8, 2013 (UTC)Pecan
 * I am pretty sure the point of the archetype is that the last female royal believes they are the last of their bloodline and that it is up to them to protect their legacy. Panne isn't a royal and doesn't seem to care that she is the last Taguel.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:43, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

"Tactician" Archetype
Reading through the page I got to the Malledus archetype and read through the list. I was expecting to see Marcus for FE7 and 6, but instead the Tactician is listed. Furthermore, the Avatars in the most recent FE games are also listed. I think we've got two different archetypes here...one is for NPCs or playable characters that act as advisors for the lord character, while another is The Player Character, an actual manifest character in a few games. I do not consider these to be the same thing, on one hand you have the Jagan who supports the lord as his older, wiser and experienced advisor, typically a crutch character, fitting that archetype. Marcus is an excellent example of this. But the tactician? He's completely different, not some old battle-hardened paladin but a faceless, silent character whom you're supposed to project yourself into. He doesn't fight, doesn't have any experience or background before the story, and doesn't get the respect most Malledus characters have for their battle experience. Yes he gets some respect for being brilliant, and all the characters idolize him as some great thinker, but he's not the same as the archetype would suggest. I see the recent Avatars in the same way - yes they're the advisors and tacticians, but not in the same way that these other characters are advisors to the lord.

tl;dr Why do we have this archetype? It's just Jagan under a different name isn't it? Either way, Marcus belongs here and the Tactician and Avatars don't imo, they're worlds apart character-wise.RamuneDrink (talk) 07:23, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Mustafa as additional example of Camus?
Mustafa (an enemy general who appears earlier than Yen'fay in Awakening/FE13) seems to fit the archetype quite well: he bears no ill will towards the protagonists (offering to spare them if they surrender peacefully) and has the whole "cares for his men, even offering to let them leave" thing going for him. 129.21.82.175 21:37, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mustafa isn't a major character. He is a one off boss. He isn't even the first sympathetic one off boss in the series (though he is probably the one who they really play up the sympathy for). If we include him, we'd have to include them all, and that would bloat the list to the point where it becomes pointless.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:40, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * The same can be said of Uhai from FE7. He isn't very major; we only see him twice, ever. Granted, the second time is at the boss barrage at the end, but he never seemed too important. He was just a one off boss; one of three in the whole game, apparently, because Linus and Lloyd are also listed. If FE7 can have three Camuses listed, I don't see what's stopping us from "bloating" the list with FE13's Camuses. --Codefreak5 (talk) 08:22, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually I don't remember if Uhai even is a Camus, though Lloyd and Linus have the qualifications of a Camus. Mustafa is certainly not a Camus due to his early appearance and lack of connection to anyone in the army which all Camus' have. Like Otherarrow said, he isn't the first sympathetic boss. Case Point. Yen'fay is more qualified, and I'm not sure why we don't include him, though that may be because he can be recruited in the Story (via SpotPass) which is an unusual trait amongst Camus' save Selena in FE8, though only in the Tower of Valini quests.—Nauibotics (talk) 09:47, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * With the current definition of Camus on the page, Mustafa is a Camus while Yen'fay definitely is not. The current definition has no requirement of appearing late in the game, and only mentions that they may have loved ones or friends in the army. Yen'fay cannot be a Camus as the current definition requires them to fight out of loyalty to their country or leader, whereas Yen'fay fought because he was blackmailed. -- Snorlax Monster  09:53, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Most people forgot that Mustafa was blackmailed too. He only fought because Gangrel held his family hostage, and otherwise would have just surrendered and let Chrom and co pass. His case isn't much different from Yen'fay's case.--Otherarrow (talk) 11:31, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Take Hetzel. He never condoned his faction's actions, but went along with it because he couldn't oppose them. When he's fought, he seems genuinely regretful of his actions. He's not fighting out of loyalty, he's fighting because he believes it's the will of his god (or, rather, goddess). This makes him loyal to his god, yes, but not necessarily to his country.
 * My point is this: Other characters who do not fit the archetype's definition to the letter are still listed as an example of the archetype. If they were put on the list despite this, why isn't Mustafa being allowed, despite him missing only one part of the definition?
 * Strict adherance to the definition isn't necessarily required, and it can be modified if people see fit to change it. Mustafa hit nearly all of the important parts of a Camus, that being honorable and holding no grudge against Chrom's army, willing to let his men leave the battlefield if they do not wish to fight, and caring enough about them to ask Chrom to spare his men with his final words. Because of this, I believe Mustafa should be listed as a Camus. --Codefreak5 (talk) 18:55, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I still don't get why they are so insistent on including Mustafa but make excuses not to count Yen'fay who has a very similar case but also has the added things of being linked to at least one member of the player's party and is more than a oneshot chapter boss. But no, Yen'fay isn't allowed because he was being basically blackmailed to fight for Walhart and lacks true loyalty to him, and likewise not only was Mustafa also blackmailed by Gangrel, but also has no link to anyone in the army (Henry joins a ways after his death). They are sympathetic, yes, but being sympathetic alone doesn't make you a Camus. Not every vaguely tragic villain in the series is cast from Camus's mold. (I'll be honest, if folks are insistent on whining about it so much, I might need to trim this one down even more. Which is weird, because the definition the article uses is rather specific.).--Otherarrow (talk) 18:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)


 * Perhaps I misunderstood the definition of the archetype. When I first read it, Mustafa struck me as that sort of man - that's why I thought he should have been included, and why I fought so hard when I learned others, such as yourself, thought otherwise.
 * However, I don't believe I'm "whining" about it - arguing a point, yes, maybe even more than necessary, I'll admit that. My view does not match yours, and neither does the opinion of many others - does that make us "whiny"? Or do we simply have a different interpretation that we are arguing that you think of as incorrect?
 * But, that's not an issue for this talk page. If you see fit to not include Mustafa and even trim the list to your liking, well, there's nothing I can do about that. You have my apologies for wasting so much of your time on this matter. --Codefreak5 (talk) 15:31, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, nah. I don't mean you arguing here specifically, but kinda in general, you know? Folks are constantly adding him to the lists talking about how he totally counts and even going as far as to remove Yen'fay and question why he was even included at all (despite them actually being fairly similar in circumstance) and...I guess you were the first I've seen who actually tried to argue it in any serious capacity (so kudos). I don't think the others even really put much thought into it; they think "he's a sympathetic boss, thus he is a Camus" without really thinking about all the other factors that go into the Camus characters. Mustafa isn't blindingly loyal, he was blackmailed into fighting. He doesn't have any particular bond with your army, so while we the players see his death as tragic, the characters themselves don't know of any of it and thus don't pay him any more mind than the bosses before him (the folks who Mustafa was friendly towards before the battle, Olivia and Henry, join after his death after all). I am sorry if I was rude here, but I am going to be honest, this Mustafa-Camus business is starting to bug me a bit.--Otherarrow (talk) 19:41, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm guilty of that myself - sorry about that too, by the way, even though it was a month or two ago - but looking into the characters some more, I can totally see where you're coming from. It's pretty easy to skip over things that don't support your viewpoint when you're looking for things that do. So, I agree with you now, that even though Mustafa is sympathetic and, in my mind, a good person despite his affiliation, he's not exactly a Camus by definition. And Yen'fay is indeed similar - I had honestly forgotten the story behind him in the main story, as I had played the Valmese section of the main game several months ago, and rushed through it, at that. (Normal mode + MU grinding).
 * And I would be bugged too, if I were you. So many people drawing conclusions without having all of the information surrounding the situation, If this issue comes up again - which it very well may - I'll support your side of the argument. --Codefreak5 (talk) 19:45, January 16, 2014 (UTC)

Second Nyna Archetype
Nyna was in love with Camus, an enemy soldier who saved her life. When she tried to persuade him to stop fighting and to join the player's army, he refused to, mainly because of his loyalty to his country. In nearly every Fire Emblem game, there is a female character (usually playable) who has a family member or a loved one that is part of the Camus archetype in the game they appear in. If the player has her fight them, she will try to persuade them to stop what they are doing. However, the other person, despite not wanting them, refuses to stop fight, mainly because of loyalty towards their country.
 * Nyna (FE1/11)
 * Raquesis (FE4, first generation)
 * Teeny (FE4, second generation)
 * Olwen (FE5)
 * Miledy (FE6)
 * Nino (FE7)
 * Jill (FE9)

--Agarfinkel (talk) 17:05, March 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Do these characters have anything else in common? Friends and lovers on opposing sides is a pretty common thing in war stories. Besides, we already have a Nyna. But yeah, I think this one is a stretch.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:14, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Murdock
A sub archetype to the Camus archetype, Murdocks are usually a General (or similar type of unit or military rank) who hold a certain amount of respect for and from several players units and NPCs, but die in the story nevertheless and may even hold some amount of ill will towards the player.

List of Murdocks
There are others who are considered Murdocks, but this is the generally agreed upon list.
 * Brendan (FE7)
 * Glen (FE8)
 * Bryce (FE9)
 * Dheginsea (FE10)
 * Cervantes (FE13)

Do you thing yen'fay shgould be a hardin

Yen'fay
Do you thing Yen'fay shouold be hardin. He fought for bad to protect Say'ri.

Lon'qu isn't a recruitable enemey and therefore does not fit the Nabarl archetype. 83.87.250.6 15:20, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

YEN'FAY is a recruitable character in the aftergame.
 * "However, for various reasons, they have a tragic fall to evil". Yen'fay never really was corrupted into a evil; he fought for Valm to protect Say'ri. He sounds more like a Camus than a Hardin. --Thenewguy34( Other ) 11:02, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Sonia
Do you think Sonia should be a ephidel Archetype. She manipulater Nino.

Rudolf
In some of the Fire Emblem games, there is a major antagonist (not the main antagonist) who is the ruler of an enemy country. Unlike other enemy leaders who just conquer other nations for no reason at all, these rulers have a very good reason for what they are doing (for instance, Rudolf wanting to free the land from the gods' influences) and are willing to die for these reasons. In addition, they are fully aware that their actions will cause many people to hate them. --Agarfinkel (talk) 14:00, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Rudolf (FE2)- wanted to free the land from the gods' influences
 * Travant (FE4/5)- wanted his country, Thracia, to prosper
 * Walhart (FE13)- wanted to stop Grima's ressurection

Umm..
From the Archetype page:

Notable Pegasus Sisters are: Oscar, Boyd, and Rolf (FE9/10)

I have no words. 84.47.62.60 23:17, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except you do because you just posted! Also, the thing about wikis is, you edit them. You see a problem, you edit it. The problem has been fixed, but next time, you see a problem, you fix it, clear? Being a snarky jerk will just make me cranky and respond to you in the same manner.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:23, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * EDIT:Oh, derp, what stupid moron I am. You can't edit it because it's locked...for some reason. I think it was a high vandal target. Man, I, being a complete failure, forgot this. Sorry for snapping at you so rudely buddy. But lay off the snark, OK? We are all friends here.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:28, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Lucina a Jeorge?
Umm, I was looking at the Jeorge archetype page, and whilst Virion and Say'ri are on there in FE13, I still think that Lucina should be counted on there.

This is the quote from the archetype page: "A member of the Jeorge archetype is a character posing as a simple traveler who joins early or mid-game, and is later revealed to be royalty, nobility, or otherwise of plot-critical heritage. They are commonly, but not necessarily, bards."

Lucina:

1) She does pose as a traveller, who aims to save the party from death multiple times (Excluding Chapter 4, where you fight her), so whilst not a simple traveller, she still does pose as a traveller..

2) She is later revealed to be not only royalty, but also of plot-critical heritage!

3) Whilst not a bard, (Only 3 out of the 10 people you have listed as Jeorges are Bards, so I really think that bit is redundant now) she still fits the rest of it.

Meanwhile, Say'ri:

1) You meet her in the chapter she 1st appears in, so, cannot really be seen as a traveller.

2) I think you also find out that she is a noble in that chapter, so technically, it isn't a big a surprise as say, Joshua's revelation, or Kurthnaga's. She does NOT hide that fact from you.

This is why I see Lucina more as the Jeorge than Say'ri.

There is a time for all things, and the end of a thing is better then the beginning. (talk) 15:18, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

A few suggestions :
Could possibly Nergal be some kind of Hardin in a way ? He was a good man while he was with Athos, and became mad when Aenir, his lover, died. (please note the traduction fail on Nergal's death quote when you visited the gaiden chapters, when he talks about quintessence instead of Aenir, due to the close japanese traduction of both these words.) Plus, he ain't even the last boss of the game.

I'd put Lorenz in the Camus list, because of how he ended in FE3/12. Which I regret highly, tbh.

And finally, in the Gordin section, routes for Leo and Paison have been swapped.

Ricken and Merric
I see that some people do not see Ricken as being a Merric.

While Ricken does not look up to a more powerful magician, neither does Soren, who fits the archetype quite well. Keep in mind that most Merrics look up to a stronger magician, not all of them. Boey does not look up to a stronger magician; he does have an older sister, Mae, who is a magician, but he really does not look up to her; he just bickers with her. Azel does not look up to a stronger either, as well as Arthur, Amid, Maruju, and Lugh. And I see all of these guys as members of the Merric archetype. So I don't really see what the argument is here.

Someone mentioned that Ricken is not the "first mage". I would also argue that Ewan is not the first mage either, but he fits the archetype just fine. --Thenewguy34( Other ) 10:46, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

Terrible article
Large parts of this article are pretty much junk. I would edit it myself but I can't since it's locked. Several of these are terms nobody in the fandom would ever use for groups of characters that have very little meaningful things in common, and even the ones with some validity get lots of things wrong in the description.

Like:

-The descriptions of Abel's and Cain's stats are wrong. More generally, I don't think there's much of a correlation between the armor color and either stats or personality. The armor colors don't "switch consistently," there's just not much of a pattern there in the first place.

-Ogma's stat growths aren't particularly good. Neither are Dieck or Gerik's. And Raven simply does not fit the archetype either way.

-"Bords" don't consistently have better HP. Boyd and Nolan shouldn't be listed at all. If they're not a pair, they're not this archetype.

-Barth is not related to Wendy and Bors.

-The Pegasus Sisters/Trio archetype needs a firm definition rather than waffling. Is it about actual Pegasus Knights that triangle attack, any three units that triangle attack, siblings that triangle attack, or what?

-Jeorge archetype seems pretty random and arbitrary.

-The Gordon archetype as it stands is pretty much just a list of early Archers.

-Draug archetype is just a list of early-joning Armor Knights with typical Armor Knight stats? Not a meaningful archetype,

That's just for starters.

I'd argue that in the article's current state, it's so full of misinformation and strange ideas that locking it is hilarious and pointless. Why worry about vandals? The page can't get much worse than it already is. Its practically already vandalized in its current normal state.AxemRedRanger (talk) 04:10, February 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know. This page has had folks add misinformation that it slowly mutated into stupid nonsense and I pretty much stopped caring. I've considered reducing it to what was spoken of for real in one of the artbooks, but I've lost track of the artbook scans and no one cares enough. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:03, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Maria "archetype"
How the hell does Mist fall under the spectrum of the "Maria archetype"? Also, how does l'Arachel NOT?! The archetypr isn't based on availability, Otherarrow and co., it's based on nobility. They're all spectrums of the Ojou, a Japanese character archetype for young girls of high status that act stuck-up and/or Tsundere towards everyone. Trueblade74 (talk) 15:50, September 27, 2014 (UTC) Should Cynthia be an Est? She comes fairly late and can have bad stats if sumia and father are not trained.
 * Mist is like Maria since she is not the primary healer like a Lena is or Rhys in the case of PoR. Mist joins the army much later like Maria, though not quite as late. L'Arachel is a Troubadour similar to Ethilyn in terms of stat growths and character. While they do not list them in each article, all of the Archetyped characters follow not only character similarities, but also stat similarities. Mist and L'Arachel's stats growths match Maria and Ethilyn's growths respectively.—Nauibotics (talk) 23:35, December 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * The same could be said for all children characters in Awakening since poor stats from their parents attribute to their low starting stats. The only true similarity between Cynthia and Est is that they are Pegasus Knights and they are technically the last Pegasus Knight you recruit in their respective games.—Nauibotics (talk) 23:35, December 9, 2014 (UTC)

Frederick as an Oifey
Should Frederick be considered an Oifey? In the end, he is one of the worst first generation units, and is, overall, one of the worst units in the game. 207.190.10.40 07:40, December 9, 2014 (UTC)Glaceon10
 * Well, Oifeys are not exactly great units overall since the Cain/Abel units have better growths and ending stats. His stat growths are modestly good and are more similar to the Oifey Archetype, having modestly good growth rates, than the Jagen Archetype, who have very low growths. He is usable even later in the game in the Endgame, but not preferred on higher difficulties without reclassing him to bolster his stats. Plus, he's physically similar to the Oifey Archetype since he's slightly older than the main cast, but not old like Jegans generally are.—Nauibotics (talk) 23:15, December 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Frederick really is not that bad. He takes a bit of time and patience with reclassing to bring his stats up to par, but that really is not the biggest issue, since that applies to pretty much every unit that wants to balance out their bad stats. I really do not think Frederick is as bad as a typical Jagen, who is hardly able to pull his weight once the later chapters begin to pass, whereas Frederick needs a little bit of time and patience. --Thenewguy34( Other ) 12:01, December 10, 2014 (UTC)

In regards to characters under the Jeorge archetype, one has caught my attention. Say'ri is not a Jeorge. My reasoning is simple: she never poses as a simple traveller. Her character description reads as follows. "The princess of Chon’sin, a small nation on the Valmese continent. She’s a strong-minded individual who always cuts straight to the point. Her old-fashioned appearance is a stark contrast to the Ylisseans. Adores her older brother, Yen’fay. The best diver in the army." Pay attention to the first sentence. "The princes of Chon'sin, a small nation on the Valmese continent." There is no attempt to hide the fact that she is royalty in Awakening at any point.

I would like to argue that she should be replaced by Lucina. Lucina intorduces herself as "Marth," a young man behind a mask, which she is not. She attempts to hide her true identity from Chrom and everyone else until she joins your party at the end of chapter 13, which plays the archetype straight.76.2.191.174 17:24, April 4, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with that, anon. I really do think that she is a Jeorge unit.

User:LittleEngines747 13:25, July 22, 2015 (UTC)LittleEngines747

Addition to archetypes from Fates
Here are my ideas for adding characters.

Ogma - Lazward (Nohr) - First mercenary you get.

Bord and Cord - Arthur and Charlotte (Nohr) - Don't know yet who is cord and who is bord.

Julian - Kaze (Hoshido and Invisible Kingdom) - Same lockpicking as Zero on Nohr.

Gordin - Setsuna (Hoshido) - First bowman you get.

Minerva - Crimson (Hoshido) - Wyvern lord, check. Red armor, check. Fights her own country, check. Except she's never an enemy on Hoshido. Maybe Camila on Invisible Kingdom.

Arran and Samson - Izana and Fuuga - those two because there is NO way to have them at the same time, unlike other characters (not sure about Flora and Yukimura)

Hardin - Gunter (Invisible Kingdom) - I think he somewhat fits, even if he actually survives to the end.

Wendell - Izana (Hoshido and Nohr) - I think he is the only promoted magic user you get...

95.183.82.12 15:19, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Lazward has literally nothing in common with Ogma other than class.
 * Arthur and Charlotte have literally no relation to each other, one being a soldier and the other being a mercenary/border guard. They are even more flimsy a fit than Boyd and Nolan (...which is an "exception" anyway, so ick)
 * Is Kaze associated with a cleric and/or swordfighter? No? Then he ain't a Julian.
 * Gordin is a flimsy archetype to begin with.
 * Crimson is shakey, since she is only an enemy in the routes where she never joins you, and from what little I know of her plot, she is fighting in rebellion against Nohr for her country's independence, not as a solider of Nohr who later goes rogue. Camila is flat out.
 * The devs have gone on record that the entire game is based on the Arran/Samson choice, so a case can be made that every route exclusive character fits the archetype. As for this casing though, no. The reason Fuuga replaces Izana is due to story turns in the third route, not due to the player choosing between specifically them.
 * Hah hah hah, no. Gunter's possession lasts all of a chapter, and from what I can tell, he is used as pretty much just a straight mouthpiece during the chapter. Also, he lives.
 * Izana is not a mentor figure, to my knowledge.
 * I'll kinda use this as an example: Do not suggest archetypes or archetype candidates unless you are sure they are meant to fill that role or that there is a recurring role to be filled (and isn't just "first archer" or "first armor knight"). The archetype page as it is is a real mess and I've been trying to find artbook scans of when IS basically gave their take on the archetypes up to that point (so suggestions on, say, Awakening and Fates would be fair game), but all I've found are the Cain/Abel page. It's a hot zone that folks should probably leave alone. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:14, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

Keeping Archetype talk on the Archetype page
I've noticed that Archetypes are a magnet for people to force characters into holes they don't necessarily fit into and make up obtuse patterns solely so they can fit more characters under an Archetype, and there is no real attempt to maintain continuity between this page and the individual character pages. In other words, it's a barely curated mess of fanwank. Until we can find those scans of the "official" archetypes and their members, I'm going to basically remove all the "Archetype" sections from the character pages and keep a close watch on this page to stop it from bloating into the embarrassing mess it was before. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:36, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Adding chars from Berwick saga?
I wonder if we should add characters from berwick saga to the archetypes. Your desicion whether or not, but here are my suggestions:

Jagen (pure) - Ward - starts out at really high level and much stronger than the rest, while having shittier growths the the rest

Cain & Abel - Leon (Cain) and Adel (Abel) - They fit red/green cavalier (spearknight actually) theme well. They even have unique skill designed to support one another. Weird thing is that Leon has red clothes on official art but green in the actual game.

Ogma - Kramer - Kind of obvious: a freelance mercenary joining of his own accord... temporarily. Have to keep paying to use him though.

Gotoh - Lanette - Joins in the last chapter. Her stats aren't that high for a char of this archetype, but her skills make up for it.

Lena - Izerna - Fits with being an early game healer, getting captured and rescued and overall stats.

Maria - Saphira - Another healer that joins later than Izerna with different skills and promotion. Uniquely she is captured after she becomes playable (about 8 main chapters after).

Merric - Aegina - First joining mage, obviously specialises on wind magic (joins with wind and has higher wind skill growth). 2 out of 3.

Beowolf - Sedy - he is the only merc who requires you to spend a certain sum of money on him (specifically 5000 gold) to recrut permanently.

Bandit Twins - Griff & Graff - the two bandits who are fought in 1-1. Actually don't share the class (one is a Bandit Chief, the other is a Rogue).

And two from TearRing Saga.

Jeorge - Samson - I sure was surprised after learning Samson was married to princess of Arial, and so was Holmes.

Malledus - Eugen - definitly acts like Runan's advisor. And despite appearing in cutscenes throught the game from start to finish, never becomes playable.
 * The main reason they aren't there is, well, we only recently started covering Berwick Saga at all! Leon and Adel are a pretty obvious fit, as is Ward and Lanette. Izerna, Aegina and Sedy are pretty close as well (well, Sedy is as close as a game with a "hire to use" recruitment system has). Saphira and Kramer I am more shaky on though. Since the Bandit twins are also reliant on appearance and strange mannerisms, I dunno if Griff and Graff count at all.
 * As for the TRS ones, I just have to say: Why isn't Eugen on there already? He's pretty much cut out of that mold.--Otherarrow (talk) 20:38, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Garo in Tearring Saga
Garo is kinda weird as Pirate seems to be a tier 1 class/unpromoted in Tearring Saga with lower stat caps then pretty much any Tier 2 caps. Garo's actual growths aren't particularly bad, he just can't promote. I wonder if a promotion for him was one of the many cut content? Emperor Hardin (talk) 09:29, August 20, 2015 (UTC)