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ExplainEdit

can you explain what an archetype is on the page (or put an external link to wikipedia there) because i and i'm sure many other people have no idea what that is.--Semajdraehs-Talk page-Shaman animation 21:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Limstella?Edit

Would Limstella qualify as an Ephidel Archetype?1337 B33FC4K3 04:32, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

I would say no, since she doesn't manipulated anybody. --Fabsu93 14:50, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Nyna Archetype.Edit

Shouldn't Ephraim and Erikia be on the list?

Erikia-

1) Princess of Invaded country.

2) Escapes from the palace while her father gets killed.

3) Only her and her brother survies the invasion.

4) Invasion of her country orgainised by Lyon (While posessesed by Formotiis)

5) Playable.

Ephraim-

1) Prince of Invaded country. (Yeah, not a girl, but still)

2) He does not technically escape, as he was in Grado when the invasion started, but escaped from being captured by Valter in Chapter 5x

3) Only he and his sister survives the invasion.

4) As above, Lyon organised the invasion.

5) Playable.

Also, both of them are Lords, which is different (classes wise) to most of the others in the Archetype (Nyna- Bishop, Ira- Sword Fighter, Guinevere- Sage and Elincia- Princess Crimea) Though they have the same class as each other.

There is a time for all things, and the end of a thing is better then the beginning. 16:43, March 4, 2012 (UTC) The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anon.... (talk • contribs).

1. Doesn't need to be playable.
2. "If we include Eirika and Ephraim, we will be including characters like Marth, Ike, and soforth." A similar point was brought up a while ago. Click this link and read what Otherarrow said: [1] --Thenewguy34 18:46, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

ShiidaEdit

Is there any reason that the princess of a country that's been invaded but not always the main country who (generally) joins early to mid-game, has a love interest with another noble, (generally the main character), and for some reason, always has long blue hair? Like:

  • Caeda to Marth (FE1/3/11/12)
  • Lilina to Roy (FE6)
  • Lyn to Eliwood/Hector (FE7)
  • Tana to Ephraim (FE8)
  • Lucia (FE9/10, though she never marries but still is a noble and also follows the hair factor)?

Is this coincidential? --Thenewguy34 19:12, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Ogma and Narbal fitting?Edit

  • Wouldn't Savor from FE2 qualify as an Ogma, since Savor is hired to joined the main character's army and he's a Mercenary also like Omga did in FE1/11.
  • And Deen from FE2 and Samto from FE3/12 qualify as a Nabarl. Since they're both recruitable swordman enemies and they did work at an antagonistic type job and be recruited to the main character's army afterward like Narbal in FE1/11?

-- King Marth 64 (talkother wikisblogs) http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k576/DigiPen92/th_20px-Marthsprite.gif Peace_Ness.png 20:47, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

MostynEdit

I don't think Helman belongs because Helman originally tried to have Eliwood and Hector killed before he told them to go to Laus. --Thenewguy34 10:46, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

NynaEdit

Wait, why did we remove Nyna's archetype again? --Thenewguy34 23:13, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I felt it applied to too few people. The only characters who truly fit, at least as I saw it, were Nyna and Guinevere, the others being awkwardly wedged into it. Not to mention if we made the definition broader, just about every Lord character would fit the archetype, and most of those Lords didn't really have much in common besides the whole "being run out of their country" thing. I hope I am making sense.--Otherarrow 00:00, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should remove them, I think we should just keep it, we do know Ira and Elincia is the Princess of the Invaded Country also and most of their growths and personality most of them are the same too. I think remove this archtype is way too vagued. -- King Marth 64 (talkother wikisblogs) http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k576/DigiPen92/th_20px-Marthsprite.gif Peace_Ness.png 00:43, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

A poll here on the talk page will accomplish nothing. As for personality wise, the only ones who are similar are Nyna, Guinevere, and maybe Elincia. But having similar growths? Just about everyone in the archetype was a different class! Not to mention, I do recall this archetype in particular being one where just about every entry had some excuse as to why it didn't fit the norm in some way. That is not a good sign.--Otherarrow 01:41, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

BastianEdit

I think Bastian from FE9/10 qualifies as a Norma, since he matches most of the requirements. While he has higher base stats than other Normas, so does Saleh as well.The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thenewguy34 (talk • contribs).

Potential Pegasus Archetype?Edit

I do wonder if we can pull off an archetype of pegasus units (originally from a group of mercenaries or serving from country) who joins your at first small ranks. I've been wondering that if we rewired the conditions a bit, if we could pull this off.

So far, I have:

If we are capable of pulling this off, it will need a lot of work. I will continue to look into it and see if it can work. --Thenewguy34 00:35, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

This seems to be "Pegasus Knight who joins first, is usually also one of the three Pegasus Sisters". Is that really a distinct enough thing? I dunno. Palla and Catria are out, as they join mid-game in 1, but might count for 3. The rest join early, I guess. Since the current write up seems to exclusively list units who are also members of the Pegasus Trio archetype already, I do wonder if this isn't already covered by that? Would Karin or Shiida count? Or does them not being part of a mercenary force exclude them? (Then again, Vanessa isn't a merc or from Renais either.)--Otherarrow 00:57, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

"Pegasus Knight who joins first, is usually also one of the three Pegasus Sisters". This archetype is not exclusive to the first pegasus knight, though it often is. This archetype isn't exclusive to just those units.

This is supposed to represent pegasus units who join your small ranks from a mercenary squad or from country (not exclusive to the first pegasus knight or from Pegasus Sisters, though they often are). That factor already puts in Thany, Vanessa, and Marcia, but I'm not sure if Palla or Catria fit or not, as I never played FE3/12. As for FE7, I think the fact that Florina might fit because of how she searches for Lyn when she learns that Lyn departed for Caelin (I think Florina wanted to help her out, so that's why I'm giving her a shot). As for Shiida, no, but for Karin, I don't know, as I never played FE5. Does she join your small ranks from a mercenary squad/country, and also is overshadowed by units that come later?

Also, statwise, these units are overshadowed by other aerial units that join later (forgot to add that earlier). This explains Thany (overshadowed by Thite and Miledy), Florina (overshadowed by Farina and arguably Fiora), Vanessa (overshadowed by Tana and Cormag, and Marcia (overshadowed by Jill).

If I'm a bit difficult to understand, I can shorten this down to the requirements and the units who I think fit. --Thenewguy34 10:07, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Let's see, Vanessa isn't from a mercenary squad, nor is she from the country of the heroes. (Eirika is from Renais. Vanessa is from Frelia.) So she is out. That leaves Marcia, Florina, and Thany. If I recall correctly, Marcia is regarded as one of the better flyers in both games, superior to Tanith and Sigrun. Also, I wouldn't say Vanessa is overshadowed by Tana. Maybe by Cormag. Tana requiring some babying does count against her in my book. So that leaves Thany and Florina. I think this is one of those cases where you tried too hard to make is distinct, but ended up ruling out most of your proposed members by accident.--Otherarrow 13:44, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Vanessa out? I said that they join either from mercenary squad or from country: I never specified what specific country they have to be in. If Vanessa was out for that reason, the whole proposed archetype would cease to exist. Also, I was talking about Marcia from FE9, not FE10, because most people take Jill for her defensive capabilities in FE9. So Vanessa and Marcia are still in. --I'm trying to run expansion projects, read such content on my profile. 19:34, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

If that is your definition, then "from country" doesn't mean anything. Every character is from a country. And Marcia isn't completely outclassed by Jill either. Even if she does not have Jill's defensive capabilities, Marcia still considered better than Tanith, the other Falcon Knight you get. Also, Vanessa is still arguably out, because her being overshadowed by Tana and Cormag is a "your mileage may vary" thing. (I personally feel Cormag does, but Tana doesn't, if only because Tana needs babying to be at Vanessa's level)--Otherarrow 20:12, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

I meant originally served country before joining, but it appears that you keep dismissing the proposed archetype. Ah, well. It was worth a shot to try to find an archetype without saying "every cavalier that's not Cain nor Abel" or "every promoted unit with ridiculously high growth rates." --I'm trying to run expansion projects, read such content on my profile. 23:10, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

I'll be a bit honest here, I still don't know what you actually mean. Originally served country before joining? So they served a country before joining the player's army? That covers every pegasus knight who isn't a mercenary, and arguably, some who are (like the Ilian Pegasus Knights, or Misha, though she doesn't fit this anyway). Also, notably, that would include Sheeda, only I am not sure if the Whitewings out class her. The availability thing might steer things in Sheeda's favor though. Also, bolding words doesn't make them easier to understand. If you bold something that people will misunderstand your meaning (such as in this case), they will still misunderstand it. Sorry for any trouble.--Otherarrow 15:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Miriel and RichtEdit

I'd like to suggest that Richt be put into the Merric category and Miriel moved into the Wendell category, seeing as Richt fits the 'young, early-joining, usually male mage' theme a lot better than Miriel, who happens to be his mentor, like Wendell is to Merric, Pent to Erk, Saleh to Ewan etc. I know not too much is known about the game right now, but this much seems obvious to me. Am I right or amirite? --Further up, further in... 23:40, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

For one, Miriel is not a promoted unit, and actually joins before Richt. Also, I am not sure if Miriel is actually Richt's mentor, as neither of their profiles mention it, and I haven't played the game yet.--Otherarrow 01:26, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Marisa as a Narbal??Edit

"A Nabarl is a character that is usually a myrmidon and usually appears early in the game as a recruitable enemy. Often carries a Killing Edge, or a similar weapon with a high critical rate. They tend to have high skill and speed growths, but poor strength growths. They are often believed to be worth the effort of recruiting. Lore wise, they usually have some relationship with the Lena or Julian character and have a warrior's spirit, hold some kind of code or policy, and are known to take chances. Before they join the player's party, they may have served as a mercenary for bandits. Like Ogmas, they usually fade into obscurity after the war is over." Quoting artical on Archetype page.

Marisa has high speed and skill growths (Along with HP) with a low strength growth. She starts as a Myrmidon and she served as a mercenary under the Ogma archetype in the Game (Gerik), and she is determined to be better then her father, another swordfighter, she is a very good unit, starts out with a shamsir (which has a high crit rate), is a recruitable money, and can support with Clom. The only differences are that she joins mid game, and not early game, and does not fade into obscurity after the war (But neither does Joshua). Does she count as a Narbal? There is a time for all things, and the end of a thing is better then the beginning. 16:00, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Marisa is already counted as a Nabarl.--Otherarrow 16:06, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Possible characters from Gaiden fit to the list?Edit

  • Wouldn't Zeke (Camus) from FE2 qualify as an Lorenz, since Zeke is a new General of Rigel and a Recruitable enemy in FE2.
  • Maisen from FE2 as a Gotoh. Since he's recruitment was after defeating Rudolf in Chapter 4 and that part was really near to the Final Chapter?
  • And should we count Geyse as a Michalis also?

King Marth 64 (talkother wikisblogs) FE4_Junior_Lord_Sprite.gif Peace_Ness.png 21:41, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
Isn't Maisen already a Gotoh? Or is he too weak to qualify? Also, I wouldn't be trying to bend over backwards to fit Gaiden in with alot of the Archetypes, since most of them weren't established as recurring things until 3 or 4. Unbulit trope and all that.--Otherarrow 22:06, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

I think Maisen might qualify as a Gotoh since they count as recruited very late and near the end of the game. I think I'll just put it in.-- King Marth 64 (talkother wikisblogs) FE4_Junior_Lord_Sprite.gif Peace_Ness.png 02:39, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Do any of the Kakusei children characters count as Ests?Edit

Do any of them possess Est-like characteristics? --Thenewguy34(Other) 17:05, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

From what I have seen? No. The children maybe, but you can get them any time after Lucina joins as long as their parents are hooked up (though I think access to Warm is also requried for some). All the SpotPass characters are promoted and high level.--Otherarrow 20:46, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Mostyn ArchetypeEdit

Mostyn was the king of Talys and an ally of Marth's. When Marth started his journey, Mostyn provided Marth with additional allies, including his daughter, Sheeda. Since then, in almost every game, there is always a monarch or ruler whose country is allied with the main character's country. They usually aid the main character early in the game (sometimes mid-game or late-game). They provide the player with additional units, money, and supplies. In addition, they have family members who also join the player's army. In later games, these rulers also join the player's army.

75.31.110.102 00:04, July 20, 2012 (UTC)agarfinkel75.31.110.102 00:04, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

The first time, it was dismissed due to lack of clarity. This time, it appears to be more clear, though I am not sure if this is one or not.--Thenewguy34(Other) 11:38, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Arrogant Archer Archetype??Edit

Hey everyone, one thing I've noticed in a few of the Fire Emblem games is that there are a lot of archers (mainly snipers) who join usually in the middle of the game who tend to be quite arrogant and stuck up. Innes (FE8) and Shinon (FE9/10) are the two I'm most familliar with. (That being said, the only Fire Emblem I've played are FE7, FE8 FE9, and FE11). I don't recall any other snipers like that from Shadow Dragon or FE7, but that doesn't mean that there aren't more out there. Rath from Fire Emblem 7 isn't really the arrogant/stuck-up type, but he is very quiet, much like the other two.

I know this isn't a very supported idea, but hey, no idea's a bad idea, right? Well, tell me what you guys think... *fingers crossed*

JTA777 (talk) 01:07, October 14, 2012 (UTC)JTA777

Actually, I think Innes and Shinon are the only ones who fit that. So no dice. Sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:22, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Sniper Archetype?Edit

I know that Jeorge is part of an archetype, but is he part of another archetype as well? By this I mean a Sniper who joins the team with a powerful bow, mainly a silver bow. For members of this archetype, I think of Jeorge, Briggid, Klein, Louise, Innes and Shinon. I don't know about Gaiden or Tharcia 776, but these character types appear in many of the games. I'm wondering if this should be made official or not, I'd really like to hear some opinions. Fargo294 (talk) 02:48, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure if "prepromoted Sniper with a Silver Bow" is a thing we could get away with. It seems too general.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:04, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
Here is my version of this archetype: a pre-promoted sniper who comes equipped with powerful bow; usually, but not always, comes from a wealthy or noble family, since they sometimes join the player's army with an item that can be sold for a lot of money; and they can also develop some type of relationship with the character belonging to the Gordin archetype of the game they appear in (for instance, Jeorge becomes Gordin's teacher, Briggid can be paired with Jamka, Louise can have two support conversations with Rebecca, and Shinon is Rolf's teacher. Also, just saying, the reason I believe Jeorge is not part of the archetype he is already in (the one with Levin in it) is because, unlike the other people in that archetype, he does not hide the fact he is a noble and he does not play an important role in the story. --agarfinkel
Not a bad idea!Countess Reglay (talk) 23:26, October 29, 2012 (UTC)Countess Reglay
I forgot to mention who is in the list:

--Agarfinkel

MedeusEdit

Well hi there, I'm back with the idea of creating a Medeus Archetype^^ This time it looks like this:

Same arguments as last time: Fierce beasts (mostly dragons) fought at (or in Dheginsea's case, close to) endgame with immunity or high resistance against "unholy" weapons. I kicked Fire Emblem 7's Fire Dragon out cause it has no characterization at all, while I included Loptyr for the reason that he HAS character (despite being a tome). Additionally, they have only minor influence to the main story, but major influence to the back story (Dheginsea for example fought as one of the three heros of Ashera in the past, while doing absolutely nothing in the present). Ashera is noted as being also like this, but for me she looks too "human". The influence Gimle has on the main plot is unknown to me as I want to experience the story of Fire Emblem 13 while playing it (without importing it, I can't read japanese) and thus I want to keep the spoilers I read at a minimum. Veld, Nergal and Ashnard are not part of this despite being final bosses (one riding on a dragon) because they are to active in the main plot, especially Nergal. I really would appreciate it if this would enter "official" status because of how well thought this is (yea, I know, praising oneself sucks). With that, greetings, Nitzudan(talk) Metroid-Icon3.gif 22:43, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

So it's basically "every dark god/dark dragon villain and Dheginsea is also there for no reason". I'll be honest, I don't see much of a link aside from "obligatory dragon as the final boss", and but that cuts out Doma, Fomortiis, Dheginsea (because he isn't a final boss. Why is he here?) and technically Loptyr. Well, OK, there is the "minor influence" thing...which cuts out Loptyr (controls/influences Yurius throughout the second gen) Fomortiis (possesses or manipulates Lyon, depending on route) and Gimle (is an active force behind Fauder). So with both of those things in account...you have just Idenn and Medeus. No offense, I don't think we should be trying to force an archetype here.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:03, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

TikiEdit

In some of the Fire Emblem games, there is a female manakete who, despite having the appearance and personality of a little girl (even though she is actually way older than she looks), can tranform into a powerful dragon. She is usually a divine dragon or of noble lineage and can become one of your most powerful units.

Agarfinkel (talk) 01:30, January 16, 2013 (UTC)agarfinkel

So it's basically...every playable Manakete who isn't Bantu or Nagi? This sounds too general, IMO.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:38, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I think this one is worth noting since I mean, it has about as much representatives as the Bord and Cord archetype. They all share things in common including the fact that they are generally the only ones able to use a specific stone that the rest of the cast cannot (Tiki is the only one in the original game that could use Divinestones, Fae is the same. Myrrh is the only one that can use a Dragonstone. Nowi and Nah are among the few, though the others are Tiki and possibly Morgan). They also tend to have a special bond with one of the lords (Tiki with Marth, Fae with Roy, Myrrh with Ephraim, and Nowi with the Avatar.)
  • "A Tiki is a Manakete who has the appearance and personality of a young girl, but is actually several hundred years old. Tiki's are generally recruited mid to late game and are the only units able to use a specific stone weapon. They also tend to have a special bond with one of the main Lords/Avatars of the game. Their highest stat growth is generally in their HP stat. Their Strength/Magic, Speed, and Skill tend to be high as well to ensure that their attacks are powerful enough to kill enemies in one turn as their main weapon, Stones, are limited in availability, thus reducing weapon usage."
Anyways, that's my two cents.Nauibotics (talk) 09:14, May 25, 2016 (UTC)

Naesala ?Edit

I wonder if Naesala could be considered as a Michalis in FE9 (though he is recruitable eventually) as he is a minor antagonist looking for power (even if, like Michalis or Trabant it is all for his poeple) and sells his strength to the enemy.

Darckbishop (talk) 17:55, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

PanneEdit

Would Panne fit under the Nyna archetype?

The main point of that archetype is "Someone thinking they are the last of there family/kind/group", and Panne is the last Taguel.

76.178.23.40 02:04, February 8, 2013 (UTC)Pecan

I am pretty sure the point of the archetype is that the last female royal believes they are the last of their bloodline and that it is up to them to protect their legacy. Panne isn't a royal and doesn't seem to care that she is the last Taguel.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:43, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
I would assume Panne would be worthy of her own archetype starting in FE15 if we see another shapeshifting beast class unit. I mean, Panne started the trend of a shapeshifting beast unit whose name is a pun on a type of fabric and has Beastbane in their base class set.—Nauibotics (talk) 09:17, May 25, 2016 (UTC)
I am not sure the theme-naming isn't so much an Archetype in the making so much as it is...theme naming. For one, Panne isn't the only shapeshifter in FE13 to be named after a fabric (her son is too) and all four "beast-shifters" in FE14 are named after fabrics as well. All of them also get Beastbane, so that'd kinda be like making an Archetype for "Thieves who get the Steal skill". So basically, you are proposing a roundabout way to post a class list?--Otherarrow (talk) 13:38, May 25, 2016 (UTC)

"Tactician" ArchetypeEdit

Reading through the page I got to the Malledus archetype and read through the list. I was expecting to see Marcus for FE7 and 6, but instead the Tactician is listed. Furthermore, the Avatars in the most recent FE games are also listed. I think we've got two different archetypes here...one is for NPCs or playable characters that act as advisors for the lord character, while another is The Player Character, an actual manifest character in a few games. I do not consider these to be the same thing, on one hand you have the Jagan who supports the lord as his older, wiser and experienced advisor, typically a crutch character, fitting that archetype. Marcus is an excellent example of this. But the tactician? He's completely different, not some old battle-hardened paladin but a faceless, silent character whom you're supposed to project yourself into. He doesn't fight, doesn't have any experience or background before the story, and doesn't get the respect most Malledus characters have for their battle experience. Yes he gets some respect for being brilliant, and all the characters idolize him as some great thinker, but he's not the same as the archetype would suggest. I see the recent Avatars in the same way - yes they're the advisors and tacticians, but not in the same way that these other characters are advisors to the lord.

tl;dr Why do we have this archetype? It's just Jagan under a different name isn't it? Either way, Marcus belongs here and the Tactician and Avatars don't imo, they're worlds apart character-wise.RamuneDrink (talk) 07:23, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Mustafa as additional example of Camus?Edit

Mustafa (an enemy general who appears earlier than Yen'fay in Awakening/FE13) seems to fit the archetype quite well: he bears no ill will towards the protagonists (offering to spare them if they surrender peacefully) and has the whole "cares for his men, even offering to let them leave" thing going for him. 129.21.82.175 21:37, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Mustafa isn't a major character. He is a one off boss. He isn't even the first sympathetic one off boss in the series (though he is probably the one who they really play up the sympathy for). If we include him, we'd have to include them all, and that would bloat the list to the point where it becomes pointless.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:40, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
The same can be said of Uhai from FE7. He isn't very major; we only see him twice, ever. Granted, the second time is at the boss barrage at the end, but he never seemed too important. He was just a one off boss; one of three in the whole game, apparently, because Linus and Lloyd are also listed. If FE7 can have three Camuses listed, I don't see what's stopping us from "bloating" the list with FE13's Camuses. --Codefreak5 (talk) 08:22, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
Actually I don't remember if Uhai even is a Camus, though Lloyd and Linus have the qualifications of a Camus. Mustafa is certainly not a Camus due to his early appearance and lack of connection to anyone in the army which all Camus' have. Like Otherarrow said, he isn't the first sympathetic boss. Case Point. Yen'fay is more qualified, and I'm not sure why we don't include him, though that may be because he can be recruited in the Story (via SpotPass) which is an unusual trait amongst Camus' save Selena in FE8, though only in the Tower of Valini quests.—Nauibotics (talk) 09:47, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
With the current definition of Camus on the page, Mustafa is a Camus while Yen'fay definitely is not. The current definition has no requirement of appearing late in the game, and only mentions that they may have loved ones or friends in the army. Yen'fay cannot be a Camus as the current definition requires them to fight out of loyalty to their country or leader, whereas Yen'fay fought because he was blackmailed. --SnorlaxMonster 09:53, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
Most people forgot that Mustafa was blackmailed too. He only fought because Gangrel held his family hostage, and otherwise would have just surrendered and let Chrom and co pass. His case isn't much different from Yen'fay's case.--Otherarrow (talk) 11:31, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
Take Hetzel. He never condoned his faction's actions, but went along with it because he couldn't oppose them. When he's fought, he seems genuinely regretful of his actions. He's not fighting out of loyalty, he's fighting because he believes it's the will of his god (or, rather, goddess). This makes him loyal to his god, yes, but not necessarily to his country. 
My point is this: Other characters who do not fit the archetype's definition to the letter are still listed as an example of the archetype. If they were put on the list despite this, why isn't Mustafa being allowed, despite him missing only one part of the definition?
Strict adherance to the definition isn't necessarily required, and it can be modified if people see fit to change it. Mustafa hit nearly all of the important parts of a Camus, that being honorable and holding no grudge against Chrom's army, willing to let his men leave the battlefield if they do not wish to fight, and caring enough about them to ask Chrom to spare his men with his final words. Because of this, I believe Mustafa should be listed as a Camus. --Codefreak5 (talk) 18:55, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
I still don't get why they are so insistent on including Mustafa but make excuses not to count Yen'fay who has a very similar case but also has the added things of being linked to at least one member of the player's party and is more than a oneshot chapter boss. But no, Yen'fay isn't allowed because he was being basically blackmailed to fight for Walhart and lacks true loyalty to him, and likewise not only was Mustafa also blackmailed by Gangrel, but also has no link to anyone in the army (Henry joins a ways after his death). They are sympathetic, yes, but being sympathetic alone doesn't make you a Camus. Not every vaguely tragic villain in the series is cast from Camus's mold. (I'll be honest, if folks are insistent on whining about it so much, I might need to trim this one down even more. Which is weird, because the definition the article uses is rather specific.).--Otherarrow (talk) 18:29, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps I misunderstood the definition of the archetype. When I first read it, Mustafa struck me as that sort of man - that's why I thought he should have been included, and why I fought so hard when I learned others, such as yourself, thought otherwise.
However, I don't believe I'm "whining" about it - arguing a point, yes, maybe even more than necessary, I'll admit that. My view does not match yours, and neither does the opinion of many others - does that make us "whiny"? Or do we simply have a different interpretation that we are arguing that you think of as incorrect?
But, that's not an issue for this talk page. If you see fit to not include Mustafa and even trim the list to your liking, well, there's nothing I can do about that. You have my apologies for wasting so much of your time on this matter. --Codefreak5 (talk) 15:31, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Oh, nah. I don't mean you arguing here specifically, but kinda in general, you know? Folks are constantly adding him to the lists talking about how he totally counts and even going as far as to remove Yen'fay and question why he was even included at all (despite them actually being fairly similar in circumstance) and...I guess you were the first I've seen who actually tried to argue it in any serious capacity (so kudos). I don't think the others even really put much thought into it; they think "he's a sympathetic boss, thus he is a Camus" without really thinking about all the other factors that go into the Camus characters. Mustafa isn't blindingly loyal, he was blackmailed into fighting. He doesn't have any particular bond with your army, so while we the players see his death as tragic, the characters themselves don't know of any of it and thus don't pay him any more mind than the bosses before him (the folks who Mustafa was friendly towards before the battle, Olivia and Henry, join after his death after all). I am sorry if I was rude here, but I am going to be honest, this Mustafa-Camus business is starting to bug me a bit.--Otherarrow (talk) 19:41, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm guilty of that myself - sorry about that too, by the way, even though it was a month or two ago - but looking into the characters some more, I can totally see where you're coming from. It's pretty easy to skip over things that don't support your viewpoint when you're looking for things that do. So, I agree with you now, that even though Mustafa is sympathetic and, in my mind, a good person despite his affiliation, he's not exactly a Camus by definition. And Yen'fay is indeed similar - I had honestly forgotten the story behind him in the main story, as I had played the Valmese section of the main game several months ago, and rushed through it, at that. (Normal mode + MU grinding).
And I would be bugged too, if I were you. So many people drawing conclusions without having all of the information surrounding the situation, If this issue comes up again - which it very well may - I'll support your side of the argument. --Codefreak5 (talk) 19:45, January 16, 2014 (UTC)

Second Nyna ArchetypeEdit

Nyna was in love with Camus, an enemy soldier who saved her life. When she tried to persuade him to stop fighting and to join the player's army, he refused to, mainly because of his loyalty to his country. In nearly every Fire Emblem game, there is a female character (usually playable) who has a family member or a loved one that is part of the Camus archetype in the game they appear in. If the player has her fight them, she will try to persuade them to stop what they are doing. However, the other person, despite not wanting them, refuses to stop fight, mainly because of loyalty towards their country.

--Agarfinkel (talk) 17:05, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

Do these characters have anything else in common? Friends and lovers on opposing sides is a pretty common thing in war stories. Besides, we already have a Nyna. But yeah, I think this one is a stretch.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:14, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Murdock Edit

A sub archetype to the Camus archetype, Murdocks are usually a General (or similar type of unit or military rank) who hold a certain amount of respect for and from several players units and NPCs, but die in the story nevertheless and may even hold some amount of ill will towards the player.

List of MurdocksEdit

There are others who are considered Murdocks, but this is the generally agreed upon list.

Do you thing yen'fay shgould be a hardin The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.82.39.252 (talk • contribs).

Yen'fay Edit

Do you thing Yen'fay shouold be hardin. He fought for bad to protect Say'ri. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.82.39.252 (talk • contribs).

Lon'qu isn't a recruitable enemey and therefore does not fit the Nabarl archetype. 83.87.250.6 15:20, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

YEN'FAY is a recruitable character in the aftergame.The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.82.39.252 (talk • contribs).

"However, for various reasons, they have a tragic fall to evil". Yen'fay never really was corrupted into a evil; he fought for Valm to protect Say'ri. He sounds more like a Camus than a Hardin. --Thenewguy34(Other) 11:02, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Sonia Edit

Do you think Sonia should be a ephidel Archetype. She manipulater Nino.

RudolfEdit

In some of the Fire Emblem games, there is a major antagonist (not the main antagonist) who is the ruler of an enemy country. Unlike other enemy leaders who just conquer other nations for no reason at all, these rulers have a very good reason for what they are doing (for instance, Rudolf wanting to free the land from the gods' influences) and are willing to die for these reasons. In addition, they are fully aware that their actions will cause many people to hate them.

  • Rudolf (FE2)- wanted to free the land from the gods' influences
  • Travant (FE4/5)- wanted his country, Thracia, to prosper
  • Walhart (FE13)- wanted to stop Grima's ressurection

--Agarfinkel (talk) 14:00, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

Umm.. Edit

From the Archetype page:

Notable Pegasus Sisters are:
Oscar, Boyd, and Rolf (FE9/10)

I have no words. 84.47.62.60 23:17, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

Except you do because you just posted! Also, the thing about wikis is, you edit them. You see a problem, you edit it. The problem has been fixed, but next time, you see a problem, you fix it, clear? Being a snarky jerk will just make me cranky and respond to you in the same manner.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:23, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
EDIT:Oh, derp, what stupid moron I am. You can't edit it because it's locked...for some reason. I think it was a high vandal target. Man, I, being a complete failure, forgot this. Sorry for snapping at you so rudely buddy. But lay off the snark, OK? We are all friends here.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:28, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Lucina a Jeorge? Edit

Umm, I was looking at the Jeorge archetype page, and whilst Virion and Say'ri are on there in FE13, I still think that Lucina should be counted on there.

This is the quote from the archetype page: "A member of the Jeorge archetype is a character posing as a simple traveler who joins early or mid-game, and is later revealed to be royalty, nobility, or otherwise of plot-critical heritage. They are commonly, but not necessarily, bards."

Lucina:

1) She does pose as a traveller, who aims to save the party from death multiple times (Excluding Chapter 4, where you fight her), so whilst not a simple traveller, she still does pose as a traveller..

2) She is later revealed to be not only royalty, but also of plot-critical heritage!

3) Whilst not a bard, (Only 3 out of the 10 people you have listed as Jeorges are Bards, so I really think that bit is redundant now) she still fits the rest of it.

Meanwhile, Say'ri:

1) You meet her in the chapter she 1st appears in, so, cannot really be seen as a traveller.

2) I think you also find out that she is a noble in that chapter, so technically, it isn't a big a surprise as say, Joshua's revelation, or Kurthnaga's. She does NOT hide that fact from you.

This is why I see Lucina more as the Jeorge than Say'ri.

There is a time for all things, and the end of a thing is better then the beginning. (talk) 15:18, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

In regards to characters under the Jeorge archetype, one has caught my attention. Say'ri is not a Jeorge. My reasoning is simple: she never poses as a simple traveller. Her character description reads as follows. "The princess of Chon’sin, a small nation on the Valmese continent. She’s a strong-minded individual who always cuts straight to the point. Her old-fashioned appearance is a stark contrast to the Ylisseans. Adores her older brother, Yen’fay. The best diver in the army." Pay attention to the first sentence. "The princes of Chon'sin, a small nation on the Valmese continent." There is no attempt to hide the fact that she is royalty in Awakening at any point.

I would like to argue that she should be replaced by Lucina. Lucina intorduces herself as "Marth," a young man behind a mask, which she is not. She attempts to hide her true identity from Chrom and everyone else until she joins your party at the end of chapter 13, which plays the archetype straight.76.2.191.174 17:24, April 4, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with that, anon. I really do think that she is a Jeorge unit.

User:LittleEngines747 Animation Roy Master Lord 13:25, July 22, 2015 (UTC)LittleEngines747

Random suggestions Edit

A few suggestions :Edit

Could possibly Nergal be some kind of Hardin in a way ? He was a good man while he was with Athos, and became mad when Aenir, his lover, died. (please note the traduction fail on Nergal's death quote when you visited the gaiden chapters, when he talks about quintessence instead of Aenir, due to the close japanese traduction of both these words.) Plus, he ain't even the last boss of the game.

I'd put Lorenz in the Camus list, because of how he ended in FE3/12. Which I regret highly, tbh.

And finally, in the Gordin section, routes for Leo and Paison have been swapped.

Ricken and MerricEdit

I see that some people do not see Ricken as being a Merric.

While Ricken does not look up to a more powerful magician, neither does Soren, who fits the archetype quite well. Keep in mind that most Merrics look up to a stronger magician, not all of them. Boey does not look up to a stronger magician; he does have an older sister, Mae, who is a magician, but he really does not look up to her; he just bickers with her. Azel does not look up to a stronger either, as well as Arthur, Amid, Maruju, and Lugh. And I see all of these guys as members of the Merric archetype. So I don't really see what the argument is here.

Someone mentioned that Ricken is not the "first mage". I would also argue that Ewan is not the first mage either, but he fits the archetype just fine. --Thenewguy34(Other) 10:46, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

Terrible article Edit

Large parts of this article are pretty much junk. I would edit it myself but I can't since it's locked. Several of these are terms nobody in the fandom would ever use for groups of characters that have very little meaningful things in common, and even the ones with some validity get lots of things wrong in the description.

Like:

-The descriptions of Abel's and Cain's stats are wrong. More generally, I don't think there's much of a correlation between the armor color and either stats or personality. The armor colors don't "switch consistently," there's just not much of a pattern there in the first place.

-Ogma's stat growths aren't particularly good. Neither are Dieck or Gerik's. And Raven simply does not fit the archetype either way.

-"Bords" don't consistently have better HP. Boyd and Nolan shouldn't be listed at all. If they're not a pair, they're not this archetype.

-Barth is not related to Wendy and Bors.

-The Pegasus Sisters/Trio archetype needs a firm definition rather than waffling. Is it about actual Pegasus Knights that triangle attack, any three units that triangle attack, siblings that triangle attack, or what?

-Jeorge archetype seems pretty random and arbitrary.

-The Gordon archetype as it stands is pretty much just a list of early Archers.

-Draug archetype is just a list of early-joning Armor Knights with typical Armor Knight stats? Not a meaningful archetype,

That's just for starters.

I'd argue that in the article's current state, it's so full of misinformation and strange ideas that locking it is hilarious and pointless. Why worry about vandals? The page can't get much worse than it already is. Its practically already vandalized in its current normal state.AxemRedRanger (talk) 04:10, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. This page has had folks add misinformation that it slowly mutated into stupid nonsense and I pretty much stopped caring. I've considered reducing it to what was spoken of for real in one of the artbooks, but I've lost track of the artbook scans and no one cares enough. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:03, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Maria "archetype"Edit

How the hell does Mist fall under the spectrum of the "Maria archetype"? Also, how does l'Arachel NOT?! The archetypr isn't based on availability, Otherarrow and co., it's based on nobility. They're all spectrums of the Ojou, a Japanese character archetype for young girls of high status that act stuck-up and/or Tsundere towards everyone. Trueblade74 (talk) 15:50, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

  • Mist is like Maria since she is not the primary healer like a Lena is or Rhys in the case of PoR. Mist joins the army much later like Maria, though not quite as late. L'Arachel is a Troubadour similar to Ethilyn in terms of stat growths and character. While they do not list them in each article, all of the Archetyped characters follow not only character similarities, but also stat similarities. Mist and L'Arachel's stats growths match Maria and Ethilyn's growths respectively.—Nauibotics (talk) 23:35, December 9, 2014 (UTC)

Should Cynthia be an Est? She comes fairly late and can have bad stats if sumia and father are not trained.

  • The same could be said for all children characters in Awakening since poor stats from their parents attribute to their low starting stats. The only true similarity between Cynthia and Est is that they are Pegasus Knights and they are technically the last Pegasus Knight you recruit in their respective games.—Nauibotics (talk) 23:35, December 9, 2014 (UTC)

Frederick as an OifeyEdit

Should Frederick be considered an Oifey? In the end, he is one of the worst first generation units, and is, overall, one of the worst units in the game. 207.190.10.40 07:40, December 9, 2014 (UTC)Glaceon10

  • Well, Oifeys are not exactly great units overall since the Cain/Abel units have better growths and ending stats. His stat growths are modestly good and are more similar to the Oifey Archetype, having modestly good growth rates, than the Jagen Archetype, who have very low growths. He is usable even later in the game in the Endgame, but not preferred on higher difficulties without reclassing him to bolster his stats. Plus, he's physically similar to the Oifey Archetype since he's slightly older than the main cast, but not old like Jegans generally are.—Nauibotics (talk) 23:15, December 9, 2014 (UTC)
  • Better growths and ending stats doesn't a better unit make. And in the cases of Cain/Abel units' stats in comparison to an Oifey's, the differences are marginal. And besides, FE7 Marcus, Seth, and FE9 Titania are all considered to be the outright best units in their own games. While the subtype namer and FE10 Sother aren't slouches themselves either. Frederick is a good unit, that much is undeniable. But given the EXP gain in Awakening, and how enemy stats are scaled, Frederick falls behind around midgame like FE6 Marcus and FE12 Arran both do. LittleAl16 (talk) 19:53, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
Frederick really is not that bad. He takes a bit of time and patience with reclassing to bring his stats up to par, but that really is not the biggest issue, since that applies to pretty much every unit that wants to balance out their bad stats. I really do not think Frederick is as bad as a typical Jagen, who is hardly able to pull his weight once the later chapters begin to pass, whereas Frederick needs a little bit of time and patience. --Thenewguy34(Other) 12:01, December 10, 2014 (UTC)

Addition to archetypes from Fates Edit

Here are my ideas for adding characters.

Ogma - Lazward (Nohr) - First mercenary you get.

Bord and Cord - Arthur and Charlotte (Nohr) - Don't know yet who is cord and who is bord.

Julian - Kaze (Hoshido and Invisible Kingdom) - Same lockpicking as Zero on Nohr.

Gordin - Setsuna (Hoshido) - First bowman you get.

Minerva - Crimson (Hoshido) - Wyvern lord, check. Red armor, check. Fights her own country, check. Except she's never an enemy on Hoshido. Maybe Camila on Invisible Kingdom.

Arran and Samson - Izana and Fuuga - those two because there is NO way to have them at the same time, unlike other characters (not sure about Flora and Yukimura)

Hardin - Gunter (Invisible Kingdom) - I think he somewhat fits, even if he actually survives to the end.

Wendell - Izana (Hoshido and Nohr) - I think he is the only promoted magic user you get...

95.183.82.12 15:19, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

Lazward has literally nothing in common with Ogma other than class.
Arthur and Charlotte have literally no relation to each other, one being a soldier and the other being a mercenary/border guard. They are even more flimsy a fit than Boyd and Nolan (...which is an "exception" anyway, so ick)
Is Kaze associated with a cleric and/or swordfighter? No? Then he ain't a Julian.
Gordin is a flimsy archetype to begin with.
Crimson is shakey, since she is only an enemy in the routes where she never joins you, and from what little I know of her plot, she is fighting in rebellion against Nohr for her country's independence, not as a solider of Nohr who later goes rogue. Camila is flat out.
The devs have gone on record that the entire game is based on the Arran/Samson choice, so a case can be made that every route exclusive character fits the archetype. As for this casing though, no. The reason Fuuga replaces Izana is due to story turns in the third route, not due to the player choosing between specifically them.
Hah hah hah, no. Gunter's possession lasts all of a chapter, and from what I can tell, he is used as pretty much just a straight mouthpiece during the chapter. Also, he lives.
Izana is not a mentor figure, to my knowledge.
I'll kinda use this as an example: Do not suggest archetypes or archetype candidates unless you are sure they are meant to fill that role or that there is a recurring role to be filled (and isn't just "first archer" or "first armor knight"). The archetype page as it is is a real mess and I've been trying to find artbook scans of when IS basically gave their take on the archetypes up to that point (so suggestions on, say, Awakening and Fates would be fair game), but all I've found are the Cain/Abel page. It's a hot zone that folks should probably leave alone. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:14, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

Keeping Archetype talk on the Archetype page Edit

I've noticed that Archetypes are a magnet for people to force characters into holes they don't necessarily fit into and make up obtuse patterns solely so they can fit more characters under an Archetype, and there is no real attempt to maintain continuity between this page and the individual character pages. In other words, it's a barely curated mess of fanwank. Until we can find those scans of the "official" archetypes and their members, I'm going to basically remove all the "Archetype" sections from the character pages and keep a close watch on this page to stop it from bloating into the embarrassing mess it was before. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:36, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Adding chars from Berwick saga? Edit

I wonder if we should add characters from berwick saga to the archetypes. Your desicion whether or not, but here are my suggestions:

Jagen (pure) - Ward - starts out at really high level and much stronger than the rest, while having shittier growths the the rest

Cain & Abel - Leon (Cain) and Adel (Abel) - They fit red/green cavalier (spearknight actually) theme well. They even have unique skill designed to support one another. Weird thing is that Leon has red clothes on official art but green in the actual game.

Ogma - Kramer - Kind of obvious: a freelance mercenary joining of his own accord... temporarily. Have to keep paying to use him though.

Gotoh - Lanette - Joins in the last chapter. Her stats aren't that high for a char of this archetype, but her skills make up for it.

Lena - Izerna - Fits with being an early game healer, getting captured and rescued and overall stats.

Maria - Saphira - Another healer that joins later than Izerna with different skills and promotion. Uniquely she is captured after she becomes playable (about 8 main chapters after).

Merric - Aegina - First joining mage, obviously specialises on wind magic (joins with wind and has higher wind skill growth). 2 out of 3.

Beowolf - Sedy - he is the only merc who requires you to spend a certain sum of money on him (specifically 5000 gold) to recrut permanently.

Bandit Twins - Griff & Graff - the two bandits who are fought in 1-1. Actually don't share the class (one is a Bandit Chief, the other is a Rogue).

And two from TearRing Saga.

Jeorge - Samson - I sure was surprised after learning Samson was married to princess of Arial, and so was Holmes.

Malledus - Eugen - definitly acts like Runan's advisor. And despite appearing in cutscenes throught the game from start to finish, never becomes playable.

The main reason they aren't there is, well, we only recently started covering Berwick Saga at all! Leon and Adel are a pretty obvious fit, as is Ward and Lanette. Izerna, Aegina and Sedy are pretty close as well (well, Sedy is as close as a game with a "hire to use" recruitment system has). Saphira and Kramer I am more shaky on though. Since the Bandit twins are also reliant on appearance and strange mannerisms, I dunno if Griff and Graff count at all.
As for the TRS ones, I just have to say: Why isn't Eugen on there already? He's pretty much cut out of that mold.--Otherarrow (talk) 20:38, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Garo in Tearring Saga Edit

Garo is kinda weird as Pirate seems to be a tier 1 class/unpromoted in Tearring Saga with lower stat caps then pretty much any Tier 2 caps. Garo's actual growths aren't particularly bad, he just can't promote. I wonder if a promotion for him was one of the many cut content? Emperor Hardin (talk) 09:29, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

Should Maribelle be a Maria?Edit

She comes after a Lena-like character (Lissa), and she was a hostage before she was playable! Not to mention she is a troubadour, and of noble blood! she seems like one to me.

Freddymills (talk) 20:28, August 21, 2015 (UTC)

More suggestions Edit

More suggestions for character archetypes.

Arran and Samson - Rebecca and Leteena (TRS) - don't know if they count, as the choice is done before the chapter: you recruit Leteena if you fulfill conditions, and you recruit Rebecca if you don't.

Wendell - Olwen (BS) - early joining High Priest, starts competent and stays competent (if inaccurate). Very much like Lee, though I don't khow if he teaches anyone.

Jeorge - Lucina (FE13) - for pretty much the same reasons Azura is there. Maybe Virion too.

Enteh from TRS fits into both Lena (early joining healer that gets rescued by Bartz and has typical Lena stats) and Jeorge (thought to be a simple cleric, eventually revealed to be Emiyu of Water and a princess of Reeve)

Also, should there be any "fan archetypes"? (like early joining prepromote that eventually and unavoidably leaves forever or simply for a very long time, ala Eyvel)

Finally, a crazy suggestion - Jamke for Navarre cause he DOES join with a killer weapon (a bow), gets recruited by Lena character and is pretty much the most moral character from Verdane. The only thing that doesn't fit is his class.

95.183.80.171 15:39, October 27, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I think Arran and Samson characters shouldn't include characters who are "replacements", not an actual choice (by the same logic the substitute kids from Genealogy aren't counted).
We'd have to know more about him, but he seems to fit most of the requirements (relatively early game magic crutch character, competent while not outclassing the first tiers completely, etc)?
Virion seems closer to Jeorge proper, but for some reason counting Lucina or Azure seems a tad off. Don't know why. Anyone else have thoughts on that? (I think for at least Azura, her being a Nohr princess is seemingly never relevant, and her being of Touma is just an excuse to have her exposit on the third route and never factors into plot turns or things like inheritance; Kamui gets the country at the end).
Enteh does seem Lena and Jeorge-esque, yeah.
We already axed a bunch of "fan archetypes" for being either too general, too specific (like, for example, that one would include at most 3 guys: Eyvel, Orson, and Zeek, who have nothing else in common) or just reaching way too hard to find a pattern. One could argue that, since scans of the Akaneia Chronicle (I think that is the one?) never showed up, all of them except Cain and Abel are currently on "fan" status. EDIT:Oh right, I forgot Gunter, who...I guess is kinda-sorta-not-really a traitor, making a minor second link between him, Orson, and Zeek? I dunno about that one still.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:09, October 27, 2015 (UTC)
2 more suggestions:
Minerva - Larentia (BS) - I think she fits on all accounts, aside from not wearing red.
Lorenz - Zachariah (TRS) - I'm not sure if he counts, since he is autorecruited, and I don't know if you fight Salia much anyway.
Also, what are your thoughts on that Jamke -> Navarre suggestion? 95.183.80.171 22:44, October 27, 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I think Larentia's status as an enemy officer whose nation is still at odds with the heroes even ties into why she is initially a mercenary and not a full playable: Reese isn't actually hiring her; she's a (willing I think?) POW and he's paying her bail. But that is just observations based on recruitment.
If I recall, the Salia subplot resolves itself the map immediately after his recruitment and in a kinda weird and convoluted way. I wouldn't risk it, as he doesn't seem to match aside from "enemy general who joins you".
It's silly.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:51, October 27, 2015 (UTC)

Hans Edit

Would Hans go under the michalis archtype? Or does he not orchestrate enough events to go under it? 24.240.29.217 00:37, February 4, 2016 (UTC)

I think the problem with Hans is that despite the story telling us he is ambitious and such, from what I can tell, throughout the game he is basically Garon's lackey and just does what Garon tells him to do. So no, I don't think he qualifies.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:53, February 4, 2016 (UTC)

you missed 2 archetypes Edit

The first one being the gordin archetype which includes archers recruited early on in the game and in my opinion usually get outclassed.They also are some of the youngest members in the party

the second one being the draug archetype

this includes most knights you get earlygame.The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.197.249.195 (talk • contribs).

We didn't "miss" them, we removed them, because those are not Archetypes. They are just "first X you get in the game" without any themeing or characterization to tie them together. We shouldn't list Archetypes that are basically glorified class lists, with nothing tying the people in it together than that.--Otherarrow (talk) 13:42, February 10, 2016 (UTC)

rickard archetype Edit

rickard archetype

these are theives who join later than the julian archetypes if there is one and aren't considered good by most of the fans aside from picking locks

rickard(fe1/3/11/12)

astore(fe6)

legault(fe7)

rennac(fe8)

sothe(fe9/10)

also if you think there is too few people then look at the bord and cord archetype(i consider 1 duo=1 person in that archetypeThe preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.197.249.195 (talk).

The main problem isn't the number of people, but that the archetype is literally "thief who isn't the Julian" (or in the case of Astore, Rennac and I think Sothe, "thief who joins second"). These people have nothing in common aside from class and not being the first of that class (since unit quality is maybe kinda relative: for example, I don't think Legault is considered bad at all and I hear the main strike against Sothe in PoR is his inability to promote.)--Otherarrow (talk) 02:09, April 3, 2016 (UTC)

Yukimura and the Malledus ArchetypeEdit

I honestly find that Yukimura does not belong in the Malledus archetype. Yes, he is the tactician of Hoshido, but he does not give advice to the main character. He is of little importance to the overall plot and is an optional recruit. In my opinion, he does not belong in the Malledus Archetype, where members of the Archetype are more integrated into the plots of the games they are in. --Thenewguy34 19:58, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

If you think someone doesn't fit, then remove them? It's not hard.--Otherarrow (talk) 20:09, May 3, 2016 (UTC)
I figured I was going to need some form of consent from you, given that this page is subject to intense scrutiny and review. --Thenewguy34 22:37, May 3, 2016 (UTC)
Nah, I think it's more folks trying to add stuff (and even then, it's not required.) I think the rule of thumb for Archetypes is to just use your head: If you can make a good case for something without too much logic bending or "exceptions" (and it isn't something removed or contested a thousand times like Mustafa as a Camus why do people keep adding that) then it should be fine to adjust the page. I can get using the talk page for proposing an Archetype or discussing a seemingly "out there" choice, but to just say "this person doesn't count" seems a bit silly.--Otherarrow (talk) 04:39, May 4, 2016 (UTC)

shouldn't kamui be an ogma archetype instead of savor Edit

kamui has much more balanced stats and growths than savor which is more suitable for an ogma archetype

FUGAEdit

Could Fuga be an exampel of the Wendell Archtype, he did train Hayato, and has the growth rates of one, just isn't magical. 

Meganium121801 (talk) 22:06, May 8, 2016 (UTC)

Is ricken not a merric?Edit

He seems to specailize in wind and he is a young shepard in training.24.74.143.233 14:18, June 15, 2016 (UTC)

Puhlease, create headings next.
Ricken is not a Merric because he misses a few points - he is not a first mage to join and he is not studying under anyone (that second point lets very similar Hayato get counted as Merric as he is studying under Fuga) Ofc it's just my opinion, hope admins will describe it better. And hopefully all this "Ricken is a Merric/Lon'qu is a Nabarl/Mustafa is a Camus" will stop.
Kruggov (talk) 16:58, June 15, 2016 (UTC)
Literally the only thing Ricken has in common with Merric (and in turn most Merrics) is "has Wind magic". It seems that they were trying to start a new thing with Ricken, if Hayato being a blatant copy is any indication.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:16, June 15, 2016 (UTC)

shouldn't dayan and juno also be a samson and arran archetype Edit

there is no way to recruit both dayan and yuno in fe6The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.197.249.195 (talk).

Irrelevant. The idea of the Arran/Samson archetype is the choice between two specific units. The choice is not between Dayan and Juno, they are just who you happen to get on the mutually exclusive routes (which...also isn't a real choice, as it's based on level comparisons of Pegasus Knights versus Nomads). The point of the Archetype is that the player has to make a conscious choice to choose one over the other. Characters who are exclusive to different sides of a route split are not included, as the choice given to the player isn't about them.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:29, June 23, 2016 (UTC)

Characters from TMS♯FE? Edit

Should we add characters from Tokyo Mirage Sessions here? At least some of the mirage masters seem to fit the archetypes.

Kruggov (talk) 09:59, July 8, 2016 (UTC)

I don't see why not? Though I am curious as to who, due to the different scope and style of the game.--Otherarrow (talk) 13:07, July 8, 2016 (UTC)
I'll only list mirage masters, with one exception. Most of the characters have a mirage that originally fit the archetype though.
Cain & Abel - Touma Akagi and Riku Suzumoto - Hot headed red-hair whose mirage is Cain is kinda obvious, while Riku becomes a friend and, eventually, partner of Touma. That his mirage is Abel helps. Touma is even states in the end that he works best with Riku along.
Navarre - Yashiro Tsurugi - Kind of self-explaining: Yashiro is initially aloof and antagonistic and is even fought as a boss before he joins the party.
Gotoh - Marth Mirage - Helps the party in the final battle (by becoming Itsuki's Mirage). I don't know if he appears anywhere else in the game.
Gharnef - Yatsufusa Hatanaka - Pretty much the main antagonist in the game, much like Gharnef himself was. And his Mirage is Gharnef.
IDK if my reasoning is good enough. Hope it is. Can you give me your opinions pls?
Kruggov (talk) 15:41, July 8, 2016 (UTC)
All of those bar Marth seem reasonable (though isn't Riku/Abel exclusively an enemy/NPC?). Marth as Gotoh seems like a stretch.--Otherarrow (talk) 16:52, July 8, 2016 (UTC)

Gunter listed as a Jagen? Why? Edit

To be honest, I'm not seeing how he is a Jagen. In Birthright, he's only availble for a handful of chapters, and is entirely absent as soon as those chapters are complete. In Conquest, he's in those same three chapters, but then he's absent for most of the game. And when Gunter does rejoin, it's much too late for him to be of any use. The only qualifying factor that he has comes from Revelations, where he's actually around for a decent portion of the game. But to be honest, Felicia and Jakob are more "Jagen-like" than him, since they actually can help out the player for longer than a few chapters.

LittleAl16 (talk) 19:45, October 1, 2016 (UTC)

The thing is, Jakob and Felicia have base stats like unpromoted units when they join, especially the one you get first. Second, they have very good growths, or at least average growths with most sitting around the 50% growth. Gunther has no stat that has a growth rate of over 35%, something the Jagen archetype has. The Jagen archetype is that they are basically only good for initial chapters before they lose usage. Oifey is the opposite where they are completely useful throughout the game. Unless serious time is put into Gunter, he is not a great unit to use, much like Jagen.—Nauibotics (talk) 21:11, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
Except Jakob's and Felicia's base stats are roughly on par with Gunter's. And most Jagens are actually good at least until midgame. That's often enough to give them a high spots on tier lists. And from what I've seen, decent growths or not, Jakob and Felicia operate pretty similarly to how the fandom has come to expect from a Jagen in recent years. Useful until about midgame at the earliest, and falling behind when the game becomes easier. And Gunter doesn't seem to be able to operate the same way a Jagen normally would in Birthright and Conquest. I guess he could be considered as a Jagen for Revelations since he is actually useful for a considerably longer perior than in Birthright and Conquest. But I'm still having some skepticism. LittleAl16 (talk) 21:44, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
Why does Gunter not being around for very long disqualify him in your opinion? Like for example, Eyvel is only around for a short time, too. I thought Gunter was fairly obviously designed with the Jagen feel in mind and he serves as a crutch for a short time. I think that he counts, but I don't know what others think. ~ Shaman of Earthtalk ☆ 20:40, October 1, 2016 (UTC
The fact that he's around for such a short time hardly gives him any meaningful contributions. At the very least, not  any contributions that can let him outweigh a bulk of the characters in the game. Most Jagens on the other hand, are around at least long enough to do just that. Regardless of them falling behind at any point in the game.LittleAl16 (talk) 20:52, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
Keep in mind, this point of him only being in the game a short time only applies to Birthright which he doesn't exist at all during that storyline. In Conquest and especially Revelation, he operates extremely similar to Jagen, being an early game promoted knight, has good base stats compared to the rest of the cast at the time, but quickly becomes inferior to other non-promoted units as the games goes on due to their weak stat growths.—Nauibotics (talk) 21:11, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
In Revelations, yes. But in Conquest? He doesn't even provide enough contributions to be considered as a good unit at all. In fact, he's rendered obsolete because Xander exists during then. Jagen on the other hand, while he does become inferior to other units, does remain a good unit until around Chapter 22 in FE11. In FEs 1 and 3, Jagen's "fall off point" is basically never, given that stat boosters in those two games give pretty high boosts and that enemies are generally weak in those games. And again, even though most Jagens fall off around midgame, their contributions during then are often enough to put them on high spots in tier lists. LittleAl16 (talk) 21:44, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
Keep in mind, there are two aspects to these archetypes. One is stats. First off, Jagen has some of the most abysmal stat growths and is inferior to Cain and Abel, both of whom are much more useful and are more than likely to become stronger than him unless Jagen gets astronomically fantastic stat growths per level up which, mind you, leaves him with only 19 opportunities compared to Cain who has 30 opportunities and Abel who, although has 11, has double Jagen's stat growths across the board. It's not that Jagen is useless in the long run, but he is clearly outclassed stat wise. Gunter operates similarly, he can be viable, but is clearly outclassed by the likes of Xander, Silas, and Peri who have more room to grow in the case of the latter two or have strong base stats and growths of a promoted unit like Xander. Second is the aesthetic aspect. Most Jagens are elderly knights, usually well past the age of the most of the units in the playable army, which Gunter is. As such, even though he may not be used in Birthright at all and comes more as a late game, inferior, promoted unit, he qualifies strongly as a Jegan both in his visual style and general growths, most strongly represented in Revelation.—Nauibotics (talk) 22:09, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
"Outclassed stat-wise" doesn't really mean that he "quickly becomes inferior". Like I said, Jagen's usable until at least Chapter 22 in FE11, and stat boosters exist in FEs 1 and 3. As far as as item locations are concerened in FE3pt1, Jagen can have 11 Str by the beginning of Chapter 10 of FE3pt1. And that and 13 Spd (which he can get by the beginning of Chapter 9 of the same game) are arguably all he needs in addition to every other area at its base stat to be able to take care of most enemies for at least a good while. In FE11, stat boosters are far weaker, but forges exist. And those forges are what lets him see use at least until Chapter 22. He's inferior to Cain and Abel, yes. But he's also still a valuable unit to use when the situation calls for his use. I don't get that impression of being a valuable unit from Gunter at least compared to Jakob and Felicia. Especially not on Conquest. For the "elderly knight" thing, I could see that. But Tauroneo and Zealot are elderly knights themselves, and they're not considered to be Jagens. LittleAl16 (talk) 23:36, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
Jagens are also usually retainers of main lords or otherwise work with them from the start. And if not Gunter, then who? Fuga, like I saw someone writing in the list? Felicia/Jacob? Gunter is the best fit of anyone in Fates. 95.183.99.67 00:09, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
OK, so I decided to do a serious playthrough of both Conquest and Revelation with the intention of using Gunter as much as possible while not exploiting anything outside of story chapters and Paralogues. I used No Eternal Seals until after I cleared the game and no external EXP was used for Revelation nor was the EXP DLC used on either route for ANY unit. I kept most units alive, only resetting if Gunter, the Avatar, the Nohrian/Hoshido siblings or Azura died and nothing else. In Conquest I lost Nyx and Charlotte. In Revelation I lost no one. For Conquest, Gunter is a good unit. Not a great one, but good. His strong Conquest base stats are good enough to allow him to perfectly usable, though he won't be growing much without a lot of luck. He's also good as the Avatar's support since his Personal skill gives them more damage and hit rates, though Felicia and Jakob do similar things with their Personal skills. However, he is negligible if Silas has been put through some training as he has 8 chapters to grow a decent amount and promote and in the long run, will more than likely outperform him in nearly every aspect. If Silas or Peri have not been used by that point and if you for some reason are not using Xander, and why wouldn't you use this wall to end all walls, Gunter does not disappoint. However, in Conquest, I wouldn't classify him as a Jagen as he rejoins about half way through the route (which the Jagen archetype is available from the early game all the way). In this route, he is Jagen solely in appearance and general stat growths, but not in starting stat spread. I think, Gunter got usually 1-3 stats per level up whenever he did. I think I got one +5 stat level up and that was it.
In Revelation, he is more of the true Jagen, early game promoted unit. He is stronger overall than most units up to that point in Chapter 7, but without his solid Conquest base stats, he quickly becomes inferior when all, and I mean all, of your units with their much stronger growth rates exceed him quickly. He's great in the early game to set up kills for other units and is useful until you can start swapping around your units, but in the long run, your time trying to invest in him is better spent in other units who will grow much more reliably. He still can make a decent partner for the early game, but Jakob and Felicia also performs this role just as well as him, on top of having decent to solid growths for long term usage. In Revelation, unless you REALLY like Gunter or REALLY put serious effort into him without relying on External Battles, DLC, and intentional RNG manipulation, that same time is better spent in other units, much like most Jagens are.
My general view overall is this: Conquest Gunter is not really a Jagen. He's great in that route and is worth using since training is minimal without paid DLC and his base stats upon recruitment makes him perfectly usable. If you are using Xander and have a well trained Silas by that point, he will get overshadowed in the long run, but use if you need him, he won't disappoint. In Revelation, I would highly recommend that you do not use him in the long run as, while he has early game solid stats, his low growth rates makes him a hard sell for long term usage without purposeful, deliberate, and patient manipulation and time to REALLY train him. If you are willing to put that much time into him on this route, I would spend it first on most other units then work on him later if planing on using him. As such, I placed him low on my go to Units for the Endgame units.—Nauibotics (talk) 01:53, October 18, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Nauibotics here. About LittleAl's point about Gunter becoming obsolete by Xander quickly, Arran in Mystery of the Emblem is outclassed by Sirius as soon as Chapter 4, yet nobody claims that he's not a Jagen. And yes, Gunter definitely has the elderly knight thing going on, just like Jagen himself. I'm a little surprised that Gunter's the one being questioned because he's the most similar to Jagen out of everyone in the series except for FE6 Marcus. ~ Shaman of Earthtalk ☆ 22:16, October 1, 2016 (UTC)

Why I'm questioning Gunter is because he's just about useless to the point where he's even worse than Mozu on Conquest while his worth is about that of Zealot from FE6 on Revelations. Arran, on the other hand, can contribute quite a bit even after Sirius joins. Given that, like with the case of Jagen in FE1 and FE3pt1, stat boosters exist for FE3 Arran. And that the player likely won't have many units strong enough to combat enemies quickly, safely, and efficiently in FE12. LittleAl16 (talk) 23:36, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
"Worse than Mozu in Conquest" my ass, bad growths or not he is still a lvl 10 Great Knight with good bases, Wyvern Lord reclass and awesome personal skill, and has quite a bit of value in drafts, unlike Mozu, and especially if you didn't get Xander, Silas or Camilla. As for Jagen/Arran getting statboosters and becoming murdermachines, that's props to OP-ness of statboosters in FE1/3, not to guys themselves. You can just as well give those boosters to Cain/Abel/Caeda/Luke/Rody/Sirius for just as good an effect. Honestly, why are you having this discussion again? 95.183.99.67 00:09, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
Unit quality doesn't have anything to do with archetypes. For example, Noish/Alec and Alan/Lance are very different in usefulness, but they're all a part of the Cain and Abel archetype. ~ Shaman of Earthtalk 00:01, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
Yes, Mozu is a somewhat poor unit, but that has nothing to do with Gunter. Yes, he is great in Conquest, and honestly I say that he is definitely worth using in that route assuming there is no Boo Camp DLC available for use. I wouldn't classify him as a Jagen in Conquest. He isn't available until halfway through that playthrough, unlike most Jagens who remain in the army from the beginning all the way to the end. He is a pseudo-Jagen in Conquest in appearance and general stat growths. In Revelations, he does not have Conquest's great starting stats to offset the poor growths he has. In that route, he is Jagen in the purest sense. There is very little positives when the same effort you could put in him are better spent on other units.—Nauibotics (talk) 02:04, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
Before we get any deeper into discussing Gunter's viability in the game, let's first recall this wikia's current characteristics of the Jagen (overall) archetype:
  • Joins early in the game
  • Main lord's guardian / mentor
  • Initially impressive (stats-wise) but becomes inferior to others after level-ups
  • Almost always a Paladin
Do these definitions fit Gunter's character? I think so. He's one of the first controllable, non-lord units; he is noted as one of Corrin's retainers; and he has decent base stats relative to other playable and enemy units at the beginning of the game. He may not be a Paladin, but there have been non-Paladin Jagens in the past (e.g., Sothe). Now, do these definitions fit Jakob and Felicia? I would think yes on this one too. They are one of the first controllable, non-lord units; they are noted as Corrin's retainers; and their base stats are seemingly on-par with Gunter's, especially when considering their level differences. Neither Jakor nor Felicia are Paladins, but if Sothe is exempt from this last definition, then Jakob and Felicia can also be exempt.
With all of this in mind, this wikia further expands on the Jagen archetype with two sub-categories: Pure Jagen and Oifey. It lists Gunter as a Pure Jagen, which have the following additional characteristics:
  • Awful growth
  • Circumstantially ideal throughout the game (?)
  • Typically old or sick
I'd venture to say that Gunter has terrible growths relative to most other playable units and that 99% of the FE community would agree on this. I don't know exactly what the second characteristic is trying to argue or why it would even be unique to Pure Jagens, so I'm gonna skip over it. The third point though—that Pure Jagen's are old or sick—applies to Gunter for sure. He's old. I think he himself mentions it. Now, do these additional characteristics apply to Jakob and Felicia? While they do have arguably bad growths, neither of them necessarily have terribad growths (in my opinion anyway). They're definitely not A-team level, but they're not the worst of B-team. And they're definitely not old or sick—at the very least, not notably so.
Potential unit contribution and potential campaign-usage don't seem to be indicators of Jagen archetypes as far as the wikia is concerned. And it's probably because they're less attributable to the unit's agency and more so to the player's. Any player can argue that a certain unit can carry you to chapter X, and it's mostly because of a player's choice and strategy—not because of an inherent unit characteristic. What you've been arguing isn't incorrect though; it just isn't something that the wikia is looking for when discussing character archetypes.
If anything, you could say that Jakob and Felicia fulfill the Oifey archetype, but that's an argument for another time. —FarEastwood (talk) 03:34, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
I dunno what circumstantially ideal means either. Probably that they are useable, but only in the case of a forcefully molded character. Given that they start off promoted, they have good footing to become excellent units from the get go, but their awful growths hinders that potential greatly. That's the main difference between Jagens and Oifeys. Oifeys are Jagens who can become excellent units without much effort and can work throughout the game. Pure Jagens do have the potential and can work late game, but that relies heavily on the player themselves manipulating the game (ie soft resetting until desired level ups are achieved) to get them to that point, especially when EXP sponging takes away that needed effort from other units who are statistically superior in the long run, rather than short term early maps. If they do however, they are perfectly functioning unit. I think it more comes down to an issue with how much effort is needed when training to differentiate a Jagen from an Oifey.—Nauibotics (talk) 03:56, October 18, 2016 (UTC)

Gazzak/Axe criminal as the first bossEdit

I feel there's enough Pirate, Brigand, Barbarian, and Fighter (if leading criminal gangs) units as the first opponent that the Lord's army face to warrant mention, its definitely a recurring theme at this point, and you even see it in Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE. I feel its pretty unique to the series as you rarely see armies facing bandit clans outside of Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Anyhow the archetype only includes the first real opponent, not including tutorials against friendly units such as Boyd in FE9's tutorial. For example, Bucks in FE5 doesn't count as a member of the archetype because the first foe within the game is Weissman , who also doesn't fit the archetype. I considered O'Neill, but ultimately decided Grado was too much of a real organized army for him too count. Any thoughts or objections to the addition of this archetype? Emperor Hardin (talk) 09:29, October 15, 2016 (UTC)

Scarlet/Lon'qu for Minerva/Navarre?Edit

I'm actually surprised how Scarlet isn't part of the Minerva Archetype. I mean everything about her screams Minerva.

Other than Lon'qu not being an enemy when recruited, he pretty much is Navarre with short hair, so why isn't he listed? The preceding unsigned comment was added by 176.198.202.155 (talk).

Scarlet isn't part of Minerva archetype is because 1) She is never fought (Birthright); 2)She is never recruited (Conquest); 3)She is fought and recruited, but you no longer fight Nohr at that point (Revelation). So she never actually fits all the criteria.

Navarre being a recruitable enemy is one of the most defining parts of the archetype. Since Lon'qu is never an enemy outside of P22/Streetpass means he doesn't fit. Personally, Jamke from FE4 is more a Navarre then Lon'qu as the only thing he misses is actually being a Myrmidon (Jamke is a Bow Fighter). Kruggov (talk) 18:33, October 17, 2016 (UTC)

Also, to weigh in, the geography and political landscape of...Fatesland is pretty vague (since Fates sucks at world building), but Scarlet may or may not actually be from Nohr anyway, just on the Nohr side of the Bottomless Canyon. The only part she fits is "red dragon flyer".--Otherarrow (talk) 20:13, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
I believe that Cheve is identified as a Nohrian city. But they were long since defected from the Kingdom well before she is introduced in all three routes. It wasn't the main Lord who helps convince them to fight their own kingdom like most Minervas are.—Nauibotics (talk) 02:22, October 18, 2016 (UTC)

Iago and Excellus for MichalisEdit

I believe that Iago is a Michalis in Conquest and Birthright as he is constantly scheming ways to torment the Avatar throughout both routes. He orchestrated about half of the events in both routes and is shown to be quite power hungry. Ultimately, he is but a pawn for Garon in both routes. In Revelation, he has a much more reduced role.

Excellus is a little more iffy as his role as the orchestrator mostly revolves in the Valm series where he manipulates the army to face and kill Yen'fay and has ties to Aversa/Validar to seize power as later revealed. He also is "responsible" for the betrayal of Say'ri's allies in Fort Steiger.I wanted to add these, but I figured I post it here before I do so.—Nauibotics (talk) 02:34, October 18, 2016 (UTC)

Excellus I can see maybe (though he has more in common with Oliver and Valtome IMO). Iago...no. He schemes against and torments the Avatar...on Garon's orders. He orchestrates things...as Garon's strategist/henchman. That's what he is. Garon's henchman. The game says he is power hungry, but he never really actually tries to grab for power as far as I can tell. He just does what he is told and revels in it because he's a generic cartoon villain who gets his jollies from tormenting the heroes because. I feel that they tried to mold Iago and Hans off the "minor" villain types of older games, but the fact that the two are used as primarily interchangible henchmen who exist solely to have bad people the player can beat up without guilt means that any ambition or goals the two have come off more as told and not shown.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:15, October 18, 2016 (UTC)

Can we add Mustafa from Fire Emblem 13 (Awakening) to the Camus archetype? I think he fits that archetype as he believes he is fighting for the wrong side but chooses to stay loyal anyway, and cares enough about his troops to let them leave if they so choose.104.63.100.199 06:00, October 25, 2016 (UTC)SonRuy

Oh, for the love of... Mustafa is NOT a Camus because 1) he appears ONCE and 2) he doesn't fight because of loyalty to Plegia, he fights because Gangrel blackmailed him. Seriously, the "Mustafa is a Camus" topic appeared so many times it's no longer funny. Kruggov (talk) 08:04, October 25, 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Kruggov, Mustafa isn't part of the Camus archetype. He's a one-off boss and only fights because he's blackmailed. If anything, he's more like Eagler, who's not a Camus either. -- Shaman of Earth (talk) 16:58, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

99.226.17.140 07:24, November 12, 2016 (UTC)Anonymous

More TRS inclusions?Edit

Hey, after playing through TRS recently, I noticed a few characters that might've slipped under the radar and could be added here.

Barbarossa/Barbaross very easily fits the role of a Camus, being both a strong, loyal and kind general whom the player is forced to fight. Zieg/Zeek could also fit in this role, as he eventually becomes an unrecruitable enemy mounted unit with loved ones in Runan's army, whom is also shown to care for the lives of his subordinates. 

Narron also despite being included in the Arron/Samson archetype could easily be considered a Cliff, as he can join very early, starts off quite underwhelming and can grow to become a phenomenal unit. Sasha could also be considered here, as she joins in her own pseudo-trainee class with two promotions, and has the ability to become a high-performance unitThe preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.226.17.140 (talk).

Barbaross is very much a Camus type, being the first you fight. Personally, I think TRS went overboard with that character type, but Barbaross is the first major example we see and arguably the most noticeable (even if Ernst fits most of the aesthetic qualities).
Neither are villagers and only Sasha belongs to a "tier zero" class. Remember, Quilyf, like Est, isn't just "any growth unit".--Otherarrow (talk) 14:05, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Barbaross being a Camus type, since he's just fighting for his country and not actually evil. Zeek has several elements of the archetype, too, although the traitor thing makes him more debatable. While Sasha does have the gameplay elements of the Qulyf archetype, she lacks the story ones (such as emphasized inexperience and a lot of potential), although Narron has them (but he doesn't have the "zero tier" and multiple promotions aspects). -- Shaman of Earthtalk 16:32, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
      Fair enough in regards to Narron and Zeek. The counterpoints made are quite agreeable. I still believe Sasha fits the bill as a Cliff however, since at the very least she nails all of the gameplay elements of one ("tier-zero" with two promotions, solid growths and early join time). The story elements may not be there in the fullest, but one could hazard a debate that her low base stats and level does reflect inexperience 99.226.17.140 18:35, November 12, 2016 (UTC)
I think that Sasha fits it from a gameplay perspective, but not from a storyline one. From what I can tell, the Qulyf archetype is mostly ordinary villagers who become powerful when trained up, unless I'm misunderstanding something. For that reason, I don't think that she qualifies as part of the archetype. -- Shaman of Earthtalk 01:37, November 13, 2016 (UTC)

Aren't Echidna/Bartre and Juno/Dayan From FE6 Part Of The Arran/Sampson Archtype?Edit

Aren't both pair of them part of the Arran/Sampson archtype (Although Echidna/Bartre follows the archtype more than Juno/Dayan)? I mean, it's a choice of 1 from each pair with Thite and Shanna's levels exceeding Sue and Shin's levels, you'd get Juno, where as you'd get Dayan on the contrary. With Echidna/Bartre, it is pretty much the way Arran/Sampson is recruited as both are recruited depending on a village (although they are recruited 2 chapters after visiting the village/no village). 99.224.133.122 03:45, January 5, 2017 (UTC) 10:43 PM, January 4th, 2017.

While there is that similarity, unlike the Arran/Samson choice, the choice of route that leads to Ekhidna/Barte isn't specifically about them (indeed, they aren't even mentioned in the villages in question from what I can tell), the same reason the route exclusive characters from FE5 aren't counted. As for Juno/Dayan, not only is the choice of route not specifically about the units, but it's not even a conscious choice either: it's based around how you chose to distribute levels between other units (with no indication in game that this would do anything).--Otherarrow (talk) 11:36, January 5, 2017 (UTC)

TRS Plum for Maria? Edit

I wonder if Plum can qualify for Maria. Like most Marias she ends up weaker than the game's Lena (which IMO is Enteh), but has another way she can contribute aside from using staves (namely dancing). She also has a playable sibling they want to help (Barts) and is later kidnapped and rescued.

Also on the same note, Enteh for Lena. Kruggov (talk) 22:15, January 24, 2017 (UTC)

TRS AdditionEdit

Since the header above this one is months old, I'll mention this here. Kruggov mentioned that Enteh might fit in the Lena archetype, and I'm seconding that thought. Her joining situation is almost identical to Lena's from the first FE game (fleeing south through a narrow mountain path with bandits from the north chasing), and she was rescued by Barts prior to her appearance. She doesn't have a relationship with either the Julian or Navarre characters, but neither does Silque. Enteh also has the personality type. What are others' thoughts on this? -- Shaman of Earthtalk 17:17, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

She seems to match most of the criteria, and her "main character" status may be Kaga's response to Lena being popular back in the Dark Dragon days, maybe? She fits to me.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:53, March 31, 2017 (UTC)
I guess that's possible, along with staff-wielding female leads/love interests being common in Kaga's games. Anyhow, I've added Enteh. -- Shaman of Earthtalk 18:01, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

Calill and the Wendell ArchetypeEdit

I am not entirely sure Calill fits the Wendell archetype. This archetype was not exclusively meant to be solely a pre-promoted Sage, but also a teacher/mentor to another character. Calill is not a teacher nor tutor to anyone. She only joins as a pre-promoted Sage. --Thenewguy34 00:32, April 14, 2017 (UTC)

Clive Archetype Edit

I'd like to propose a new Cavalier archetype to add.

I've noticed that sometimes, in the event that a traditional Cain and Abel duo are not present, the player instead recieves a single early game Cavalier, usually with balanced stats and growths.

My proposed list:

Clive (FE2)

Carrion (FE5)

Lowen (FE7)

Franz (FE8)

Silas (FE14)

75.109.160.47 04:46, April 23, 2017 (UTC)

Except the Cain/Abel duo is present in literally every game referenced except FE2 itself. (though I think Echoes making Forsyth Green was meant to make him the Abel to Lukas's Red Cain.) Also, again, the main requirement for an Archetype shouldn't be "they don't qualify for another Archetype" so no.--Otherarrow (talk) 11:26, April 23, 2017 (UTC)
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