Talk:Archetype

Archives: #1, #2, #3

Other suggestions for character archetypes?

Besides the Subspace Emissary characters, I also had a few other suggestions for characters in archetypes in mind.

• Alm (FE2/15) for Jeorge/Lewyn - Is introduced as a simple villager from Ram Village, but is later revealed to be the lost son of Emperor Rudolf.
• Eliwood and Hector (FE7) for my suggested Innes/Duesell archetype - Once the player beats the game, they have the option of either choosing to play Eliwood's tale or Hector's tale. Which lord they pick will be playable right from Chapter 11, while the other lord does not join until Chapter 12.
• Ursula (FE7) for Michalis - I've seen this one flying around on certain pages and am not too sure about this one myself, but Ursula is a rather cold and heartless member of the Black Fang who seems more concerned about herself (and Sonia) than the other members, similar to the likes of Kempf and Narcian. Her ambition also sees her becoming a pawn of Nergal, as she is subsequently turned into a Morph after Chapter 26E/28H.
• Rajaion (FE9) for Hardin - Is initially a kind dragon Laguz, but gets captured and has Izuka's feral drug used on him to make him into Ashnard 's personal mount. While he is not fought directly, he is technically fought as the final boss of Path of Radiance as Ashnard's mount, and regains his sanity shortly before dying after being defeated by Ike's army.
• Izuka (FE10) for Gharnef - Is a major antagonist in Radiant Dawn, and is responsible for creating the feral drug that turned several Laguz, including the aforementioned Rajaion, feral.
• Yukimura (FE14 Birthright) for Gotoh - Already explained above.
• Ryoma (FE14 Revelation) for Navarre - Admittedly, this one is rather shaky, but hear me out. In the Revelation route, Ryoma is initially encountered as an enemy unit in Chapter 13, and while he is not talked to in order to be recruited, Corrin is still able to convince him to fight for their cause by Chapter 16. He also comes with a personal weapon and skill akin to a Killing Edge, has high speed and skill growths, and has ties to the Lena equivalent, Sakura.
• Azura (FE14 Revelation) for Jeorge/Lewyn - While her status as a royal is known from the start, her status as a Vallite is not revealed until early in the Revelation route.

I also had a suggestion for a new archetype: The Elice archetype. Elice characters are characters, usually princesses, who are close to the lord or another main characer, and are kidnapped or otherwise held hostage by the villains for a majority of the game. Not all members of this archetype are recruited, but those that are join as late-game recruits. In games with this archetype, one of the main goals of the lord is to rescue the Elice character. Suggeted members for this archetype are:

• Elice (FE1/11)
• Mila (FE2/15 Celica's Route)
• Elice, Lena, Maria, and Nyna (FE3/12)
• Altena (FE4 Second Generation)
• Eyvel (FE5)
• Hausen (FE7 Lyn's Tale)
• Lucia (FE10 Part 2)
• Peach/Zelda, Ness, and Donkey Kong (SSBB)
• Katarina (FE12)
• Ylgr and Veronica (FEH Book II)

BlazingLarvesta0636 (talk) 19:27, January 2, 2019 (UTC)

My comments for each character here are in response to the games I've played. Other character suggestions might or might not fit the archetypes, so pls don't add them until further replies.

• Alm - except he is the protagonist which makes him different from the rest..
• Eliwood/Hector - your sub archetype suggestion is still too vague with so few candidates so far.
• Ursula - she doesn't seek power, she just worships Sonia and listen to every her commands, so rejected.
• Rajaion - you said it yourself, he is Ashnard's mount and not fought directly. Also he's not possessed, but drugged.
• Izuka - we got Sephiran as the Gharnef candidate, you can't have more than one candidate for this archetype, it makes no sense to have many individuals manipulate the main events of a game.

Elice archetype - an archetype should be easy to recognize throughout the franchise, not to mention your candidates are not all valid for your archetype suggestion:

• Mila is a god and barely meet your criterias
• Lena is of her own archetype, which can easily be mistaken with this
• Altena is kidnapped but also raised by Travant, which makes her different
• Eyvel? I couldn't recall any part where she got kidnapped.

Also, don't add non-canon FE games such as SSB series. -- Khang (talk) 04:46, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

Fernand for Camus Archetype

Looking at the dialogue that Fernand has, Fernand as an antagonist really seems to be driven by his beliefs and loyalty towards that very belief. I cannot articulate it that easily, but this reddit thread that discusses Fernand's character really goes over it and I feel that Fernand is VERY much in tune to how Camus functions.

https://old.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/abwgd7/the_heroes_of_valentia_episode_28_fernand_to/

So hopefully you guys agree as well.Omegaxis1 (talk) 20:23, January 2, 2019 (UTC)

Revenge-seeking Archetype?

I’ve noticed that in a few installments in the series, there tends to be that one enemy boss that, while may or may not be fighting out of loyalty, also fights the player out of revenge for killing a loved one. It’s kind of like a revenge-driven version of the Camus archetype.

Here’s my picks for the archetype:

• Ishtore (FE4)
• Lloyd and Linus (FE7)
• Ryoma (FE14 Conquest)

I’m considering adding these as well, but I’m sort of on the fence about them for a few reasons.

• Brunnya (FE6) She does fight for her dead leader, Zephiel, but doesn’t seem to have too mucch ill will against Roy despite this.
• Aversa (FE13) She does fight out of revenge for killing Validar in Ch. 25, but considering she was supposedly brainwashed at that point, I’m unsure about this one.
• Berkut (FE15) He does fight out of revenge in the final chapter, but not for a lost loved one (in fact, he killed his loved one himself).
• Laevatein (FEH Book II) She does not die at the end of her story, but other than that, her Ch. 13 fight does fit the bill.

BlazingLarvesta0636 (talk) 17:41, May 12, 2019 (UTC)

Again, I have to emphasize that an archetype should be easy to recognize throughout the franchise, with as minimal inconsistency as possible. You shouldn't call it an archetype when you got barely 3 picks, and still unsure with most of your candidates. Also, if a candidate doesn't fulfill all criterias, they're out. -- Khang (talk) 04:53, May 13, 2019 (UTC)

Three Houses Archetypes?

SPOILERS AHEAD. Been thinking about who from FE16 could fit into some of these archetypes. Note that this will contain SPOILERS.

Edelgard fits all the requirements to be a Rudolf. She rules her kingdom as an emperor, she initiates a war with neighboring countries for her own ambitions, is arguably the most major human antagonist in the game, and IIRC in all the routes, her death is either a prelude to the endgame or IS the endgame. She's a shoo-in.

Edelgard may also qualify for the Michalis archetype, as she claimed the power to herself in order to solve a problem in an ineffective way. While she qualifies being a Rudolf, the gullible and naive way she acted from her position in addition to how she allied with the big bad boss for reasons that really make you question either her intellect or insatiable power thirst, making her the perfect pawn for the antagonist to use throughout the game.

Jeralt can be a Cornelius. He's a mentor figure for the main character, is narratively killed by a faction of major antagonists, and his death spurs the protagonist into action (here, against the Flame Emperor and Those Who Slither In The Dark). He's not royalty, but he has strong ties to the Church of Seiros, a major influential body.

Flayn is kind of a toss-up between three: Maria, Lene, and Tiki, but she's most like Tiki, despite not being a divine dragon (though she does possess divine power in some capacity, due to being the original bearer of the Major Crest of Cethleann). She appears to be very young, despite being over 1000, she's kidnapped by the enemy at some point and eventually rescued, and has a strong guardian figure who is also playable in Seteth.

Shamir I think is an Ogma despite not being a sword wielding male. Prior to coming to the monastery she was a mercenary, she helps guard a noble figure in Rhea, and her ending describes her disappearing after the war. Like what the Ogma archetype describes. Marianne and Mercedes are Lena's since they join early on and are heavily religious.

I still need to experience 3H more to talk more definitively, so I won't expand on these, but here are some others that I think could fit in some archetypes. Cyril as a Kliff, Thales and/or Solon as a Gharnef, and Hanneman and/or Manuela as Wendells.

Aaronarium (talk) 07:35, July 31, 2019 (UTC)

Marianne and Mercedes are not captured by an enemy prior to recruiting them so no-Nauibotics (talk) 18:40, October 23, 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I think there's some serious problems with how you guys define Edelgard in this archetype. Something about the Rudolf archetype is that they serve as the antagonist. Edelgard is an antagonist in AM, VW, and SS, but she is a protagonist in CF. Also, she is 100% NOT a Michalis, she's not misinformed or gullible, so keep the biased talk out of this. Also, she never declares war against other nations, but rather only the Church of Seiros. Hell, in CF, Edelgard left the Alliance alone for 5 years straight, stated by Hubert and an NPC soldier. Faerghus is only at war with Adrestia because Dimitri wanted revenge on Edelgard in his misguided belief that she was behind the Tragedy of Duscur. So if you're putting her as the Rudolf, you should specify that it's in the non-CF routes. Omegaxis1 (talk) 16:09, January 27, 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it's very useful in trying to match up Three Houses characters with past archetypes. The game goes well out of its way to shed a lot of traditions in its characters. There is no Cain/Abel duo, for example, and characters play vastly different roles on different routes, making it difficult to say who is what, particularly in the second half of the game. --Hailinel (talk) 15:22, February 6, 2020 (UTC)

While I agree with playable characters not necessarily fitting into past archetypes, depending on the route, the ones that aren't playable become certain archetypes, so I'd say Three Houses is a case by case scenario. And at the very least, some mention should be made for the ones that barely miss the mark, like Flayn.--2804:7F2:8180:4258:D830:C099:8E11:A0FE 15:30, February 6, 2020 (UTC)

Explaining Rationale

I want to take this opportunity to explain the rationale behind Flayn as a Tiki because SOMEONE keeps deleting it and YES I'm petty.

Flayn is unequivocably a Tiki. She fits literally all the requirements. She has the appearance of an adolescent but is actually over 1000 years old. This is because her true identity is that of Cethleann, who fought alongside Seiros in the war of heroes over 1000 years prior to FE16. She is like this because she has draconic heritage. Sothis is literally her grandmother, and other people related to Sothis, like Rhea, can shapeshift into dragons, much like a Manakete or Dragon Laguz can. She is kidnapped by an enemy faction and is later rescued and recruited. She also has a playable guardian figure in Seteth.

"But wait!", you ask. "Although Flayn is related to someone who can shapeshift into a dragon, she can't transform herself. Therefore she is NOT a Tiki because Tikis have to be able to transform into dragons". First, all archetypes are arbitrary, and no character exists that fits an archetype in the exact same way others in that archetype do, so the hair splitting to EXCLUDE characters from an archetype is pointless.

More importantly, this statement is patently false. Although Flayn cannot shapeshift over the course of the game, Seteth (who is also a Child of the Goddess) says at the end of the Silver Snow route that he and Flayn lost their ability to transform long ago, while it seems Rhea never lost it. Flayn has the capacity to transform into a dragon. She's a Tiki.

Aaronarium (talk) 08:18, August 14, 2019 (UTC)

We have been pretty strict about this page in general as we have to have consistency present for the story, appearance, AND gameplay aspects of a character. Yes she is older than she appears and yes concept art shows her with the point ears. She fills story criteria, but gameplay wise she is vastly different from other members of the Tiki Archetype. Just because she could turn into a dragon in the past by a statement by Seteth is not enough to qualify unless she actually does as all other members have clearly been shown doing so in story AND in gameplay. Heck, we don't allow Kana on this as they can actually transform, but do not meet the age quirk. Also Ninian would qualify more than she does because she actually does transform in story into a dragon, but not in gameplay and not just because someone said she could in the past or whatever. Unless she gains access to her transformation, for now, she is not a Tiki. Keep in mind, there will be future content for Three Houses so that may change, she does not meet all requirements at the current moment to be a Tiki. She does, however, qualify as a Maria.-Nauibotics (talk) 17:43, August 14, 2019 (UTC)

But here's where you're losing me. You say we need to have consistency present for story, appearance, AND gameplay, but the Archetypes page allows for flexibility all the time by saying things like "ABC archetype is usually XYZ", or by providing asterisks to explain why so-and-so character is in fact a part of this archetype. For a couple examples, Dalen/Gyral need an asterisk to explain why they are an Arran/Samson, despite not fulfilling part of what the archetype description describes: that the one you side with can be recruited. For the same archetype, Tibarn, Giffca, and Naesala are listed for PoR, but the only Arran/Samson thing they do is that you choose one to help you in the endgame, while the others are unavailable. They don't do something with a village closing off or the non-chosen ones becoming bosses when you do choose. For one more, Boey is listed as the Merric of FE2/15, but he has no connection to the Wendell of that game, Nomah, outside of indirect things like their residency at Novis, and their passive support. However, he still fulfills the conditions to be a Merric because the page says that the mentor of the Merric is OFTEN (not always) the Wendell of the game. While I get that we need consistency to even justify the existence of a fanmade term like archetypes, my point is that I don't understand your assertion that archetypes need to fit this hard and fast description in order to fit a given archetype when archetypes that are already on the page and have been there for a while already take liberties with the categorization. We either need a truly concrete set of rules for classification, or we need to allow leniency so we can show a trend with a type of character even when that character isn't a perfect fit for the archetype. The page as it exists now wants to have it both ways, and I don't think that's something either of us want.

Aaronarium (talk) 20:37, August 14, 2019 (UTC)

You do not need to create a brand new section just to make a reply

Let's break down each of your things:

Dalen/Gyral require it because the situation is still present where you can choose one over the other like the archetype is present, but neither are recruitable. Same for the Catherine/Shamir quest in Three Houses. It doesn't affect their recruitment, but you are forced to complete the request for one over the over for the item.

Same for Tibarn, Giffca, Naesala. The point is that for the Arran/Samson archetype is that you are choosing one character over another/others in which the non-chosen units are not playable in that route. Sonia and Deen are not encountered in villages. The one you decided to fight causes the other to join you. The village situation for Arran/Samson was the original premise. It is the most often set up for their Archetype.

The clear cut premise of the Merric archetype is that they are the first mage recruited in game and has a clear cut mentor mentioned in game. The priory is known for teaching Valentian magic to its residence and Nomah is one of the teachers there. Boey fulfills the Merric Archetype to a T.

Other than that, welcome to the Archetype page, the most controversial page on the entire Wiki! The point I'm making specifically regarding Archetypes here, that has been established for years mind you, is that we are listing characters who can fulfill both story And gameplay consistencies of the originals. It is important to fulfill both as they generate a true consistency in both as it will prevent just a page about "All characters who are myrmidons are Navarres" or "All Clerics are Lenas".

In regards to Flayn being a Tiki is really far off from the other members already on the page. An implied ability to transform that was lost during their extended lifespans is not enough when she cannot do it in game while all others clearly demonstrate this ability as COMBAT units, not just narratively. If there are enough examples within an archetype to make an "Often" predicate to a condition then we are more than willing to add special caveats. More often than not, it is the gameplay that first ties the characters together, then the story solidifies and weeds out outliers who are of the same class as members, but clearly have nothing to do with the Archetype.

You are free to debate if she belongs in the Archetype, but my stance on the matter is that she is more of a Maria than a Tiki as

She is the second healer recruited

Is a young appearing female

Has plot importance heritage

Has perks and options other healers do not have (she is the only Rescue staff user) as well as her Major crest ability.

If you want to make it a vote you are free to do so-Nauibotics (talk) 21:31, August 14, 2019 (UTC)

First, I couldn't finagle the formatting to make a separate paragraph, it would just smash the text against yours and I didn't know if a different topic was preferable for the sake of neatness.

If you want to talk about making a vote, then it should be about a community consensus as to what constitutes membership to an archetype than about any singular opinion. While I still disagree with you when you say she isn't a Tiki, this disagreement should at least have a concrete metric with which to judge the sides, as opposed to being judged against the arbitrary nature of the page. Questions like these should have definitive answers: If a character fits the story requirements for an archetype but not gameplay requirements, should they be included in the archetype? What about the reverse? To what extent should archetypes be strictly enforced? To what extent are archetypes flexible outside of the description on the page? Maybe the page could benefit from archetypes having something like a section where archetype-adjacent characters are listed. This way the descriptors for each archetype can be made more definitive without risking the exclusion of characters who can in some way further educate the reader more on how IS utilizes trends in their design process. I'm open to other options, and while I know I may be seeming contentious about this, I really do just like the page, and think its a shame that, in my opinion, the system of categorization currently in place does the page's purpose (to inform on the usage of trends throughout the series) a disservice.

Aaronarium (talk) 06:23, August 15, 2019 (UTC)

Well regardless, if you want to put it up for a vote then it I am all for it. In terms of the rules of the page, The main point is that the character should hit story and gameplay aspects of a character. All of them should adhere to these as much as possible as missing one or the other makes them less similar.

Strictness may seem like a disservice, but it really keeps the page focused on the clear cut archetypes that occur both gameplay and storywise that is universally shared amongst these units.

I can already know that you wish to Approve of Flayn and I Oppose it. So that is one each. We will need to gather more to come to a verdict.

In my opinion, once again, Flayn DOES fit the story criteria. I agree that it is consistent with the archetype. She DOES NOT fit the gameplay aspect since she is not a character who can transform in and out of a Dragon form during gameplay like the existing 5 on the page. That is my reasoning.—Nauibotics (talk) 09:20, August 15, 2019 (UTC)

Adding some other three houses units?

Could Petra be considered a "Navarre" archetype as she has growths to be more balanced into being one who crits more and as a myrmidon. However she also has that ability that increases her critical hit rate.

Also interestingly I would also like to think that Manuela and Hannenman are Cain/Abel archetypes Manuela's growthrates (as a commoner) has higher hp, strength, speed and defense while Hannenman has higher Magic, Resistance and Dex growths (they are both tied in luck growth)

Petra isn't a a recruitable enemy, so she's not a Navarre, but I do think Hanneman and Manuela make for an interesting case of Cain and Abel Are You Serious (talk) 04:25, August 16, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah that was the part I was curious on as also while do also share the "Opposite personalities" that the Cain/Abel archetype are known for (like how Kent and Sain are opposites personality wise, or Sully and Stahl). The only thing they really lack is the color scheming Also the two can be recruited on the same chapter (Chapter 8 I believe) so I guess that does help with the credence with them being Cain/Abel

Catherine and Shamir as Three Houses' Cain/Abel duo?

I think Catherine and Shamir should be considered a red and green duo. It's not as obvious when just looking at their portraits, but looking at them in-game, especially side-by-side, they are clearly wearing red and green themed outfits, even if Shamir's shade of green is a bit unusual. Plus, their relationship fits with other members of the archetype from previous games. They are partners in battle with a lot of dialogue between them, and both serve as knights of Seiros with Rhea as their liege. Even their personalities fit, with Catherine (red) being very exuberant and Shamir (green) being much calmer. The only aspect that isn't part of the pattern is the fact that they have different base classes. But then again, it was thought that the archetype was exclusively cavaliers until Saizo and Kaze came along. This is probably the one archetype that I think the developers intentionally put into every game as a sort of easter egg, so I definitely see this as part of the archetype, even if its not as traditional of one.

Beadger (talk) 20:41, August 23, 2019 (UTC)

Three Houses is generally difficult to classify with past archetypes. Personality wise, I can kind of see the similarities but the outlier is, as you pointed out, they do not share the same starting class, which all previous members do.—Nauibotics (talk) 21:30, August 23, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured that would be the main argument. I still personally consider Catherine and Shamir to be the designated red/green duo of Three Houses, but I understand that, because of their classes, they aren't technically part of the Cain/Abel archetype. The thing is, with Three Houses' game design, it would be really difficult to have a red/green duo that does fit every criteria of previous members of the archetype. Since the majority of characters start as a blank slate, all the others are obviously going to be pretty diverse to balance the playable units. I don't think there are any two non-student characters that share the same starting class. Having a traditional Cain/Abel duo would just be an unnecessary imbalance of classes among a small group of units.

Beadger (talk) 00:24, August 24, 2019 (UTC)

I personally think Sylvain and Ingrid are supposed to be the Cain and Abel of this game, Sylvain is literally a red cavalier and Ingrid is depicted in green in external material like Cipher. I think Azure Moon as a whole uses archetypes. Sylvain/Ingrid = Cain/Abel, Felix= Navarre(however you don't have to go through the talking step to recruit him on AM), Ashe= Julian, Annette = Merric(even starts with Wind magic), Mercedes = Lena, Gilbert = Jagen(if you consider the start of the timeskip to be the real start of the Blue Lions route). All that leaves is Dedue who is hard to pin down since he can't really be considered a Bord/Cord since he's by himself, he's not really Jagen since he doesn't start as a promote(though he does look much older than the rest of the cast). Also, Lorenz could arguably be the "Lorenz" archetype on AM only given that he's the only unit you have to re-recruit and requires you to defeat him as Byleth, and considering how loyal he is to his noble house, he also fits story-wise as well.

--Guywhat (talk) 09:27, February 6, 2020 (UTC)

I just realized something. Technically, Oscar and Kieran have different starting classes- Oscar is a lance knight, Kieran is an axe knight.

Beadger (talk) 03:45, August 24, 2019 (UTC)

Technically yes, Oscar and Kieran are different starting classes, but that's only because Tellius splits the Cavalier class into separate classes based on their specialized weapon. Same goes for Mages and what not. That is more of a technicality in wording than in actual execution. Catherine and Shamir are completely different classes.——Nauibotics (talk) 17:39, August 26, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I understand that. I wasn't really using it as an argument, just pointing out that claiming the Cain/Abel archetype have to be the same class isn't completely accurate, since certain exceptions exist. I'm satisfied with my viewpoint that Catherine and Shamir are an intentional red/green duo, but technically not actually being part of the Cain and Abel archetype since they lack the similar class and opposing stats.

Beadger (talk) 23:06, August 26, 2019 (UTC)

Is Edelgard still a Rudolf on Crimson Flower?

On the one hand, she fits the main criteria about being a warmongering conquerer out to take over the world. On the other hand, on Crimson Flower she is clearly not the main human antagonist after you side with her in Chapter 11 and the one time you defeat her, it only sorta-heralds the end of Part I. Thoughts? Infernape612 (talk) 22:42, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

Gordin Archetype?

Wouldn't make sense? Gordin is the first archer of the game who is recruited very early in-game. The characters of this archetype are social people and very loyal to a character of the game, most times the lord, who they consider a friend too, but they can also arbor feeling for a certain person. I though of these characters.

• Gordin (FE1/3/11/12) - The first archer of the game. He's very loyal to prince Marth but consider him a friend too.
• Midir (FE4 First Generation) - He's seen to be loyal to Sigurd and Edain, who he arbors feeling with. Don't know if he's a social one, but he does look like it.
• Deimne (FE4 Second Generation) - I'm not very sure about him, but he loves his sister Muirne and he doesn't seem like the loner guy.
• Tanya (FE5) - Not sure about this one too. She's close to Orsin, and she isn't exactly anti-social, still she has a short temper, so I'm not exactly sure. I wanted to put her anyway.
• Wolt (FE6) - For this one I'm sure. He's sociable and very close and loyal to Roy who he considers a brother.
• Wil (FE7) - First archer, very sociable and loyal to Lyn.
• Neimi (FE8) - Not sure. I don't know if she can be considered a loner because of her crybaby personality, but she loves Colm and is the first archer, so I put her.
• Norne (FE11) - If Gordin is killed before the end of the prologue, Norne will become the first archer of the game. She's cheerful and social, and she's loyal to either Marth or Draug, who she arbors feeling with.
• Virion (FE13) - He's considered friendly, expecialy with girls, but for his loyalty I'm not sure, since he's loyal to his country not to a specific character. For those asking he escaped from Rosanne because he was afraid that his people would have died for him in fighting Walhart.
• Ashe (FE16) - If the Blue Lions are chosen he can become the first official archer of the game. Social and loyal to either Byleth or Lonato.

Those are the characters who I didn't put because I'm even more uncertain or simply I don't think they fit.

• Python (FE2/15) - Doesn't fit any criteria except the first archer one.
• Ryan (FE3/12) - He can be the first archer of the game, but I don't know if he's loyal to someone. The first that comes mind is Marth, but their relationship isn't seen so I don't know. Plus I think he isn't very social because of his shyness.
• Lester (FE4 Second Generation) - Loyal to her sister Lana, but doesn't seem exactly a social guy.
• Rolf (FE9) - Social and loyal to Ike or Shinon and his brothers, but he's not recruited very early, but maybe I'm overthinking things.
• Leonardo (FE10) - Fit all criteria except the social one, but I may be wrong.
• Setsuna (FE13: Birthright) - Don't know a thing about her. She is the first archer of the game but other than that I'm not sure.
• Claude, Bernadetta and Ignatz (FE16) - Claude is played in the prologue, but if his house is not chosen then he becomes unplayable, and if his house is chosen, he become the first archer, but he's the second lord so I don't think he counts. Bernadetta is absolutely NOT a social person. Ignatz will be in any case the second archer so doesn't count.

151.76.173.231 10:35, September 27, 2019 (UTC)

I suppose this COULD work but the range of personalities is not distinct enough to say this is one. A social character applies to nearly all of the cast in some manner. There needs to be some distinction like a situation quirk like say a Lena where they are always recruited after being captured or surrounded by bandits or a Navarre who is generally a lone wolf who is recruited off of an enemy faction.—Nauibotics (talk) 21:24, September 30, 2019 (UTC)

I think that they join the army voluntarily, but I guess it's not enough so this will be really scrapped. Oh well.

151.76.65.124 21:38, September 30, 2019 (UTC)

Caeda Archetype?

It's just a suggestion but I think it can work. Characters of this archetype are the secondary lord of the game and they're particularly close to the main one. Most of the times their deaths will cause a game over. However since Caeda's death doesn't trigger a game over but rather a bad ending, maybe this archetype can be discarded but here's my assumptions anyways.

• Caeda (FE1/3/11/12) - She become close to Marth after he fled from Altea and can be considered a secondary lord.
• Deirdre (FE4 First Geneartion) - She's Sigurd's wife so they are close, and her death cause a game over.
• Julia (FE4 Second Generation) - Even without her memories of being Seliph's half-sister, she was close to him.
• Nanna (FE5) - She's close to Leif and at the end of the game they get married.
• Lilina (FE6) - Close to Roy and her death cause a game over.
• Lyn (FE7 Eliwood and Hector's tale) - She becomes close to both Eliwood and Hector during the game but she's a bit overshadow by them. I may be wrong but she can be of this Archetype.
• Mist and Elincia (FE9) - They're close to Ike, but Mist will retreat if defeated while Eincia will die.
• Sothe (FE10) - This can be tricky since there are a lot of protagonists in this game, but maybe Sothe is the best choice. He's close to the main lord of the entire game, Micaiah.
• Azura (FE14) - She becomes close to Corrin and while she doesn't die but simply retreat if defeated, I think she's still a good candidate.

Here's the character that probably wouldn't fit.

• Celica (FE2/15) - Celica is not a secondary lord but rather the second lord, so she doesn't count.
• Hector/Eliwood (FE7) - Even if overshadow a bit, they remain as the second lord not secondary.
• Epharim/Eirika (FE8) - While one of the two gets overshadowed a bit during half of the game, they still remain as the second lord, not as a secondary one.
• Kris (FE12) - While they don't appear very often in the main story, but in chapters that weren't in the original game, they're still the second lord, not the secondary one.
• Robin (FE13) - Like Kris, the only difference is that Robin appear far more often then them.
• Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude (FE16) - Second lord of the game, not secondary.

151.76.173.231 13:02, September 27, 2019 (UTC)

We went over this one in the past and we said no to this one. This is mainly due to the Lords of games where multiple Lords exist causes too much grey areas to validate. We have said no to this one in the past and we will not put this one up for consideration.—Nauibotics (talk) 21:20, September 30, 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm new here. I didn't know. 151.76.65.124 21:33, September 30, 2019 (UTC)

Bantu Archetype?

This is mostly a curiosity, but there are some characters that share some similarities with Bantu. Characters of this Archetype are guardians, or simply want to protect, the Tiki of the game. I think these characters fit the bill.

• Bantu (FE1/3/11/12) - Tiki's guardian.
• Igrene (FE6) - It's said that she's Fae's guardian so...
• Saleh (FE8) - Myrrh's guardian.
• Gareth (FE10) - Servant of the Goldoa Royal Family, so that includes Kurthnaga.
• Gregor (FE13) - Gregor wants to protect Nowi so I guess he counts.

On other hand those characters won't work.

• Gotoh (FE1/3/11/12) - While it was him who wanted to protect Tiki from becoming feral, it's never said that he's her guardian, plus in Mystery of the Emblem and remake he's unplayable.
• Hawkeye (FE7) - He's Fae's guardian before Igrene, but Fae is unplayable in Blazing Sword.
• Nasir (FE9/10) - He's Ena's grandfather and probably guardian, but Ena's not a Tiki. It's never said that he's a guardian to Kurthnaga but probably not.
• Say'ri (FE13) - She's probably Tiki's guardian, but Tiki's no more of her Archetype in Awakening.
• Seteth (FE16) - He's Flayn's guardian, but for those who still haven't got it, FLAYN IS NOT A TIKI!

151.76.65.124 20:52, September 30, 2019 (UTC)

I can see the worth of it, though Gregor is not really her protector of the same extent of the others. He was not assigned to his role, rather he stumbled upon her and tried to help her despite the misunderstanding of his intentions on Nowi's part. He does not qualify in my opinion. Say'ri is kind-of Tiki's protector, but she is more an ally of Tiki as her main goals are to liberate Valm, not primarily protect Tiki. She is not assigned the role, she kind of takes it on her own accord and it is only really brought up if you decide to recruit Tiki. Seteth should not be mentioned at all since, you know, Flayn is not a Tiki.—Nauibotics (talk) 21:18, September 30, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I know that Flayn is not a Tiki but I read somewhere that they still think she is. Don't know how old the discussion was though. 151.76.65.124 21:32, September 30, 2019 (UTC)

Is Seteth a Gotoh?

Since Seteth join the army at the end of White Clouds with good stats and growths, isn't he technically a Gotoh? And if the excuse is "That's not the end of the game" it won't budge since the Black Knight is considered a Gotoh in Radiant Dawn.

151.76.65.124 21:43, September 30, 2019 (UTC)

Black Knight is a special case as he is only a Gotoh for Part 1 specifically, where he joins in the second to last level, and is not playable after Part 1 ends (aside from about half of 3-6, where he comes way too late to do much of anything), and while Seteth does join in the last Part 1 chapter, he is playble for the entirety of Part 2. Seteth is not even the latest joining character, as Hilda on Silver Snow and Gilbert on Azure Moon join after he does. Kruggov (talk) 20:59, October 3, 2019 (UTC)

Is Catherine really a Camus?

I'm a bit confused here. Catherine has a honor and doesn't exactly agree to Rhea's decision to burn down the city, but doesn't she bear ill will towards the player's army? Also, Catherine doesn't exactly fight for the wrong cause.

151.76.65.124 21:47, September 30, 2019 (UTC)

Clair Archetype?

The first encountered pegasus knight of the game. They are a relatively lower level than the other units, most of the times being at level 1, but they can become worth the training. Maybe the conditions are a bit lacky, but I'm just expressing an opinion. No need to listen to me.

• Clair (FE2/15 Alm's Route)
• Caeda (FE3/12)
• Fee/Hermina (FE4 Second Generation)
• Karin (FE5)
• Shanna (FE6)
• Florina (FE7)
• Vanessa (FE8)
• Marcia (FE9)
• Sumia (FE13)

I can't give any motivation to my responses because...it's said in the description, there's not anything else to say. But I can give explanations to characters that can't take part in this archetype.

• Caeda (FE1/11) - While she can be of this Archetype in Mystery of the Emblem, in Shadow Dragon she starts at the same level than the other characters. I don't count the tutorial since it can be skipped.
• Erinys (FE4 First Generation) - I think she starts at a pretty average level for the chapter she joins.
• Subaki (FE14) - Same reason as Erinys.

151.76.169.223 16:00, October 3, 2019 (UTC)

A low level Pegasus Knight is not enough of a description to warrant a full archetype. Are there story consistencies? Stat growth trends? Personality consistencies? You need to establish these things-Nauibotics (talk) 18:12, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

Eh. Thought you say that. All of these pegasus knights have great skill, speed and luck growths, but I think Fee, Hermina and Karin must be removed then. Fee is nothing special. Hermina has good speed and luck growths but her skill one is pretty average. Karin has outstanding speed and luck growths but her skill growth is waaaay below the other two. But for the others those growths are very good. So, did I pick your interest now?

151.76.70.93 20:33, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

Ok, now what is the story/visual design aspect that makes them unique and unified aside from being an early game unit. You need to identify a unique quirk or trait that is wholly exclusive to your proposed archetype, not just they are all of the same class. Having a worthwhile unit when trained can be applied to all characters in a vacuum and is far to subjective of a phrase to apply exclusively to this one.-Nauibotics (talk) 21:39, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

Alright, I don't know if it's enough but I'll try. When recruited, most of the times they're pegasus knights-in-training, or simply much less experienced than the others, and they are affiliated to a group of knights. At the end they become full-fledged pegasus knights. But because of this, I think Caeda must be removed. Her growths are monstrous but other than that...

151.76.70.93 12:25, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

I would steer clear of the latter term as it is too vague to get a solid definition of what constitutes a “less experienced” character. A pegasus knight-in-training works however as that is much more definitive. However this alienates a few examples, namely Clair herself, Caeda, Vanessa, Marcia, and Sumia who are all full fledged knights by the start of their stories. This will also include Erynis and Subaki as well. If you run with that definition, we would have four solid candidates which is one short of the minimum needed to put this on the main page. We could have made an exception and give this a “most of” or “commonly” tag but since it would constitute half of them rather than one or two, it still needs a better unique trait that is shared by at least six or seven of the nine (At least 66%) you originally proposed-Nauibotics (talk) 18:29, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

You're right. What about the affiliation with a group of knights from a kingdom? Clair is part of the Deliverance, Shanna and Florina are part of the Ilia's pegasus knights, Vanessa is of the Frelia's knights entrusted to Eirika, Marcia was part of the Begnion's holy knights and in Radiant Dawn she's part of the Crimean Royal Knights, and Sumia is part of the Shepherds. Would this work? If not, then this will be the last try from me as this conversation is going on for too long. 151.76.70.93 18:57, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

An affiliation to a kingdom order of knights would work great, though it would be more concise if they are current. Clair was never a member of the Order of Zofia like the other Deliverance members and the Deliverance is a rebellion. Caeda was never in an order. Marcia left the Holy Guard. Sumia was trained into the Pegasus Knight Squad but never joined like Cordelia while the Shepherds are a vigilante group. Everyone else does check out in a consistent manner as they are early low level Pegasus knights of a Kingdom army who joins the player’s army, though not of the same kingdom as the Lord’s (all applies except for Sumia). Fee is technically the start of this trend of consistency, rather than Clair or Caeda. This would comprise of 5 solid candidates while Marcia is debatable.-Nauibotics (talk) 20:53, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

Err, Fee has quite lower growths than the other characters, so I don't think she can start this. Anyway, like I said this would have been my final try. I'm beginning to grow tired of this and probably you are too, so let's pretend that this conversation never happened.

151.76.70.93 21:29, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

Is Conrad a Gotoh?

Thanks for answering my question about Seteth, but now I have a similar question. Why is Conrad not listed as a Gotoh? Isn't he recruited in a similar fashion to Mycen?

151.76.169.223 21:10, October 3, 2019 (UTC)

He’s not a “Mission Control” character. Mycen spurs Alm into the war by disappearing and appearing during important parts of the story. Conrad merely steps in to protect Celica during her own personal journey that she made herself, not under a grand plan like Alm’s-Nauibotics (talk) 18:15, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

Draug and Eyvel Archetype?

Why the Draug and Eyvel Archetype were removed? They seem to make sense. Were the conditions too lacking?

151.76.169.223 21:13, October 3, 2019 (UTC)

We prefer that we discuss a new archetype before adding it so that we can iron out details before making it official. Draug’s archetype is much too generic in terms of personality description. A friendly commoner is too simple and could be applied to a host of other characters who are not of the same class. This is the same reasons we don’t have a Gordon archetype under the basis of a friendly early recruited archer who is fast and skilled but physically frail.

As for the Eveyl, which Lord is Wallace a guardian/mentor to? He is kind of with Lyn, but he doesn’t really have much personal history with her. Shinon is only an ally to Ike as a Greil Mercenary member, but is not a guardian/mentor-Nauibotics (talk) 18:29, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

Is Eirika a Malledus?

Some people may not know it, but in Sacred Stones Aias, in his death quote, refers to Renais' tactician as a female. Since it's never explicity said who the army's tactician is, isn't it possible that it's Eirika if her path is chosen?

151.76.70.93 13:15, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

He does not use a pronoun in his death quote so there is no indication that it is Eirika whom he is specifically talking about. Second, she is not regarded as one or known for delivering the army’s tactics like other members of the archetype are clearly known for-Nauibotics (talk) 18:33, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

For all this time I didn't noticed I omitted a part. He refers to Renais' tactician as a female in the Italian version. I know it doesn't change anything but I just wanted to precise.

151.76.152.154 15:17, January 29, 2020 (UTC)

Some doubts

I think I now have a greater grasp of Archetypes. Then I think some characters may not be suited for certain Archetypes. Here's the ones I doubt.

• Zihark/Navarre - Myrmidon that starts with a Killing Edge. OK, but he doesn't have any connection with a Lena or a Julian, and at the end of the war he doesn't fade in obscurity.
• Ewan/Merric - He's a mage and his mentor is Saleh, but he doesn't appear very early, and if you think for how little chapters there are in Sacred Stones, he actually joins a bit late.
• Mist/Maria - She's the second healer of the game, but the first female healer. I really don't think she can be considered a Maria.
• Heath and Vaida/Minerva - I really don't understand. Bern's army is never fought in Blazing Sword, plus Vaida does fit the requirements, but as an enemy not as an ally.
• Lute/Linde - This one is more interrogative. She's recruited waaaaaay much earlier than Ewan, if he can be considered a Merric. I actually think that she fits the Linde Archetype, but I'm asking just in case.
• Oliver/Lorenz - Just why? He joins the army because of Rafiel, not because he thinks it's for the better. Why? Please, I just can't understand.
• Caineghis and Giffca/Gotoh - Powerful till the bone, but they absolutely do not guide any of the protagonists.
• Emmeryn/Cornelius - She doesn't die.
• Merlinus and Elffin/Malledus - Huh, are they ever said to be tactictians? I'm asking because I don't remeber if they actually are.
• Solon/Gharnef - While he fits the Archetype, I remember reading a post that said that can be only one Gharnef per game, and Thales is absolutely one.

Am I right or am I missing somthing?

151.76.70.93 21:20, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

• Zihark - The Lena/Julian thing is more of a latter quirk, but Zihark is indeed an enemy Myrmidon who is the first enemy unit who can be talked into the players army while carrying a Killing Edge. Key word is also “Tend to vanish” not always.
• Ewan is more of a special exception as his only fault is the recruitment timing, but he is the first make mage who has an identified mentor. Like Erk, he slightly deviates also by primarily using fire, but he is consistent everywhere else.
• Mist - The phrasing of this one makes it sort of confusing, but the point is that mist belongs to an archetype of a second healer who is a young female, recruited long after the Lena of the game. Mist is recruited after Rhys who is the first, so she checks out everywhere essentially.
• Heath/Vaida - Heath maybe. Vaida is employed by the Black Fang (and basically Nergal) who are the primary villains whom she can defect from and join the army. Heath is her connection to the army as well.
• Lute - Again, key phrase is usually. Delthea is recruited after Luthier, but she qualifies under nearly every other circumstance. Meets the story, stat, and weapon quirks of the Linde archetype.
• Oliver has an extremely obscure and difficult recruitment method that a Lorenz would have. Who would willingly place Rafael in his range to trigger one of the most unique recruitment methods in the series?
• Emmeryn is narratively dead, her paralogue is optional, and was not available in the base game originally (It was only available via SpotPass about a month after Awakening’s release). We have stated in the past that we take SpotPass Paralogues with a grain of salt since you can only trigger these when you get to the Endgame, which narratively doesn’t make sense given the situation of Aversa in particular.
• I don’t know enough of Caineghis and Giffca so I have no particular opinion of this one
• Solon does make sense to remove as Thales is by far the most fitting one-Nauibotics (talk) 22:07, October 10, 2019 (UTC)

Alright I understand most of them, but for someone I still need more confirm. Sorry, if I'm so hard-headed.

• Oliver - When you see that he doesn't move even if you enter his range, I think you want to put Rafiel in order to use Galdr. I mean, if that's the only reason then Nasir, Gareth and Lehran are Lorenzs as well.
• Caineghis and Giffca - For what I know, Gotohs are guides to the main protagonist, but those two appear physically only before the Endgame.

151.76.70.93 12:30, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

Clive Archetype?

Only a suggestion, nothing more. Clives are characters that rebels against their country because they refuse to abide to their current ruler's ruthless decisions. Like Lorenzs; the differences are that their recruitment methods are easier (sometimes times they don't even appear as enemies) and sometimes they have noble motives to join the army. Since there are a lot of characters like this though, this will be probably ignored.

• Clive (FE2/15)
• Roshea (FE3/12)
• Lex (FE4 First Generation)
• Iucharba (FE4 Second Generation)
• Cecilia (FE6)
• Legault (FE7)
• Haar (FE9)
• Scarlet (FE14 Birthright)
• Lorenz (FE16 Azure Moon and Silver Snow)

There are two characters that I'm not very sure if they can be of this Archetypes. They are Amelia (FE8) and Tharja (FE13). I don't know why, I just feel that they don't fit.

151.76.70.93 20:03, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

Haar is already part of the Minerva Archetype which is similar to this rebel archetype who has a more consistent story and unit type. Lorenz does not fit the Rebel questioning his leader’s “ruthless” as neither Byleth and Claude are certainly not. Recruitment timing is not consistent as Clive is recruited early while a majority of the others are mid game at the earliest. Roshea and Legault are the only two who are encountered as enemies. No real consistency anywhere aside from being a rebel, which Clive himself the highlighted character is not alone as other deliverance members like Lukas, mathilda, and Forscyth share the same rebellious sentiments towards Desaix-Nauibotics (talk) 21:17, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

Like I tought. It was only a suggestion after all.

151.76.70.93 21:30, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

Castor Archetype?

These characters joined the enemy army only because they need, or want, money but they don't agree with what they're doing, in fact they can be persuaded into joining the army.

• Castor (FE1/11)
• Warren (FE3/12)
• Hugh (FE6) (Not sure though)
• Dorcas (FE7)
• Makalov (FE9)
• Gaius (FE13)

Heh, maybe it's not enough, but at least I'm voicing opinions.

151.76.70.93 22:20, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

Hugh is a Beowolf, a character whose recruitment involves being paid gold. Gaius doesnt particularly join for money, more for candy so no. Gameplay is important for an archetype and you are not making consideration for these in your proposals-Nauibotics (talk) 22:36, October 11, 2019 (UTC)

I'm just suggesting. If they're not good, they're not good. Plus, I know that I'm making very poor decisions. If you want me to not say anything anymore, just say it.

151.76.70.93 11:06, October 12, 2019 (UTC)

Sophia and Zeiss are Ests?

How is Sophia, that joins mid-game, has awful growths and really bad endgame potential an Est?

How is Zeiss, that also joins mid-late game, has workable bases but not a very good endgame also an Est?

84.124.167.216 01:16, November 24, 2019 (UTC)

Orson Archetype???

I was browsing through the page and noticed that someone had added an Orson Archetype for characters that are in the player's army for a while but turn on their army, and honestly, looking through it, the archetype and candidates shown are incredibly shaky. Ignoring how the vast majority of candidates come from Fates and Three Houses with almost no members from earlier games, the stories behind each candidate are wildly inconsistent. Black Knight only becomes an enemy because of a shift in perspective, the Decoy in FE11 becomes unavailable for doing the exact opposite of what Orson did, Gunter (supposedly) and Scarlet are killed off in the routes where they don't rejoin, and Rinkah, Sakura, and Flayn are on the receiving end of the player's betrayal. I had also already removed Ashe and Lorenz as the can be re-recruited, completely going against the point of the archetype (By that logic, Shinon and Gatrie would also qualify). Orson, Edelgard, Hubert, and Aelfric are the only members who actually do betray the player. Honestly, despite my changes, I don't know if we can keep this archetype up. Any thoughts? BlazingLarvesta0636 (talk) 22:01, May 4, 2020 (UTC) 72.45.61.125 01:41, May 5, 2020 (UTC) While Orson themselves did betray the player, the grounds on the Orson archetype is that the player units are indeed playable for a limited time, and then leave. Story-wise, while the betrayal is a hallmark of Orson, it is not ultimately important in classifying this archetype, Gameplay-wise, it is an interesting yet increasingly common unit type found within FE. Orson is the father of this new sort of archetype that later games eventually use. Personally, I find that the Orson archetype should stay up, as while more modern FE employ this type of unit, it does have enough legs to stand on that it should stay up. Though, I agree in that Ashe and Lorenz do not qualify as "Orsons" as they can be reclaimed. If this distinction was not made, everyone from Lyn mode is technically an Orson. An Orson is classified as a unit that is playable for a limited amount of the games run, and then leaves forever either due to plot death, or betrayal. 72.45.61.125 01:41, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I moved it to this page until it is approved.

They are based off of Orson from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones.

Story-wise, Orson was a paladin serving Renais in Ephraim's army who aids him in the capture on Renvall castle, but turns on him later on to be declared king of Renais later on in the story. Members of the archetype start off in the player's army, but become permanently unavailable after a certain point in the game. They typically leave either by betraying the player or getting killed off.

Gameplay-wise, Orsons are initially playable characters, but leave after a certain point in time. Some members may re-appear later in the game as an enemy unit, but cannot be re-recruited under any circumstances. This does not include characters who are unavailable in specific levels due to special circumstances, but are otherwise fully playable or vice versa.

• Orson (FE8)
• Black Knight (FE10)
• Decoy (FE11)
• Gunter (FE14, Birthright)
• Rinkah and Sakura (FE14 Conquest)
• Scarlet (FE14, Revelation)
• Edelgard and Hubert (FE16 Silver Snow)
• Flayn (FE16 Crimson Flower)
• Aelfric (FE16 Cindered Shadows)

Okay, lets discuss this. So an Orson is a character that leave the army after a certain period of time. Okay, and what else? You have examples where they do appear as enemies later, which would count most of them except for the Decoy of Shadow Dragon and Gunter in Birthright so that is two outliers. Orson and Aelfric are one chapter units and are not permanent characters in certain scenarios. In fact, any Fates and Three Houses character is mostly a result of choosing a specific route or in the case of Three Houses, when you do not recruit a character from another house. Some are early game like the Fates characters and the black knight, the others are mid game. There is no consistent personality traits, quirks, or class. As it is, it is not enough to qualify in my opinion as the only thing they share are a temporary character that leaves at some point. Still I'll leave this for discussion. -Nauibotics (talk) 05:06, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

Wrys, Ethlyn or Lana Archetype?

At first I though of an healer Archetype and searched a bit, I though it's best to ask about all this. They all are the very first healer of the game and are recruited very early. They are kind-hearted, devoted and understanding, and at the end of the game most of them aid children or sick people in general. If it doesn't work then by Wrys it becomes Ethlyn and it ads the fact that they are recruited automatically without visiting villages or talk to them. If this still doesn't work, it becomes Lana where they become playable at the very beginning of the chapter, not during it. I don't know if this works since while they are all very similar they have their differences so I'm asking what may be the best course of action. If it should be Wrys, Ethlyn or Lana, or simply discarded.

151.76.186.36 21:06, May 8, 2020 (UTC)

So you mean the Lena archetype? -Nauibotics (talk) 03:29, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

I admit that they are very similar, but they can be recruited earlier than Lenas, and there can also be males, while Lenas can be only females. If Wrys must be discarded then the ending option must be discarded too, but then Ethlyn or Lana can be considered as they are not taken hostage by the enemy and they join the army without problems, and they are very loyal to someone (but maybe this last part can be ignored). And while Lenas start with different types of staves, characters of this Archetype always start with an Heal staff.

151.76.186.36 07:25, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

Okay, gameplay wise what are their trends? Just being a healer is not enough. Do they share a stat trend? Also who are the representatives? You need at least 5 to be considered somewhat of an Archetype.-Nauibotics (talk) 08:07, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

For healers, they are surprisingly good in Skill, Speed and, most of them, Luck, which makes them useful in combat if promoted, while Lenas are more inclined toward healing than combat.

• Wrys (FE 1/11)
• Genny (FE 2/15 Celica's Route)
• Marisha (FE 3/12)

Now if Wrys is discarded and it then becomes Ethlyn or Lana...

• Ethlyn/Lana (FE 4) - If it's Ethlyn, then both can be included, I think.
• Moulder (FE 8)
• Rhys (FE 9)
• Lissa (FE 13)
• Felicia/Jakob (FE 14) - Not sure about Jakob.
• Linhardt/Mercedes (FE 16) - Not sure about them, especially Linhardt.

151.76.186.36 11:48, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

Personality wise, there is nothing remarkable about being a kindhearted healer as basically all healers are that, including the Lena characters. Your choices are inconsistent stat wise and I think you got the roles reversed, most Lenas are actually solid offensively in the long run. Your choices do have high Sped, Skill, and Luck, but not all simultaneously. Luck seems to be the stat shared, but not all do.

• • Wrys has terrible stat growths in both Spd and Skill and is not a good combat unit in his games.
  • Genny has terrible Speed and is passable in combat. She is better than Silque in terms of raw damage, but offensively, they are both pretty terrible until they promote into Saints. I give Genny a soft pass.
  • Marisha has terrible Skill but to my knowledge, she is more "Lena" like so a soft pass.
  • Ethlyn is balanced for her game, but nothing I would call "good". Her Luck is even lower than her Skill and Speed.
  • Moulder's Luck is terrible. Combat wise, his offense is way lower than Natasha. He is bulkier than her, but she has better raw damage output.
  • Rhys is a solid choice. No complaints about him.
  • Lissa is also a solid choice.
  • Felicia/Jakob qualify, though these would be considered one since you get only one at the point where they would qualify.
  • Linhardt maybe, but Mercedes has pretty low Luck. Both are solid offensively though so I give Linhardt a full pass and Mercedes a soft pass.

Now let us add your ending quirk and supposed endings for the ones who passed the gameplay quirks.

• • Marisha disappears after the story so no indication of what she does.
  • Genny's ends with her marrying someone, but no mention if she settles down to heal the weak/children. I could possibly give this one a soft pass, but that's a two soft pass for Genny.
  • Ethlyn dies so nope.
  • Rhys does qualify
  • Lissa kinda does in her solo ending...her's is more traveling as an envoy of sorts for her brother rather than settling down. Soft pass.
  • Jakob does dutifully serve Corrin, but reserved only to them in the end, so not quite like the others, but a soft pass at best.
  • Felicia becomes a general. She is no longer a healer.
  • Linhardt remains a recluse scholar so nope.
  • Mercedes does qualify.

So the ones who can qualify are Genny, Rhys, Lissa, Jakob, and Mercedes. Genny, Lissa, and Jakob just barely scrape in by giving them soft passes. This archetype, if we are to accept it, needs more consistency. The quirk needs to be unique so I cannot say, "But that is something shared with a Lena". -Nauibotics (talk) 18:49, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

What about Lana?

151.76.186.36 19:31, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

Solid stats in line with the three core stats you mentioned. Ending is ambiguous as her's is focused on her relationship with Seliph. If she is, she becomes empress, if not it just mentions her unrequited love, nothing else. It's a pass for stats, but a very shaky soft pass for ending. It's not clear if it is enough-Nauibotics (talk) 21:33, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

At first I tought, that the five characters (and Lana, if you want) you qualified had an hard time during their young years. But I don't know if Lissa can be added.

151.76.186.36 21:44, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

A lot of characters have had a hard past. What exactly is the "hard past" that they all share? For example, the Linde Archetype have the distinction of having a loved one/family member die.-Nauibotics (talk) 21:49, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

Genny, Jakob and Mercedes have been abandoned by one of their parents, but Rhys has never been abandoned, while Lissa and Lana's parents died, so I don't know if that counts.

151.76.186.36 22:18, May 9, 2020 (UTC)

Necessity of this page

Is there truly a reason why this page should exist?  Archetypes are almost entirely fan concepts beyond a few extremely clear references, such as the red/green cavaliers. Otherwise, this is a lengthy mishmash of arbitary associations between characters that just happen to share some similarities but are not anything akin to a character archetype.  And the more characters that get listed, the longer and messier this page becomes.

Maybe some specifics, like the red/green cavaliers are worth their own pages since they have enough established signfiicance and a clear connection, but this attempt at cataloguing so many archetypes on one page, many of which are debatably not archetypes, nor are all characters listed even necessarily categorized correctly, is a near unusable mess. --Hailinel (talk) 06:17, August 4, 2020 (UTC)

It's an interesting read, but I feel that this page needs more protection in my opinion. I am really tired of seeing people attempt to add "members" who we have deconfirmed years ago.-07:56, August 4, 2020 (UTC)

I agree that making the page protected would probably be a good start, at least. --Hailinel (talk) 04:57, August 5, 2020 (UTC)

I have changed the level of protection to the page. In order to add new members to the list, a character/new archetype must be discussed on this page and receive approval from a an admin or higher and they will be the ones to add to this page. Users may post reasonings behind adding characters deconfirmed but there must be a substantially new evidence that overturns a previously discussed overturned character.-05:16, August 5, 2020 (UTC)

Possibility of a Medeus archetype

So I've had this idea all day and I guess this is my only option for hopefully getting the addition in to the actual page. I think there's a pretty solid Medeus  archetype. Characteristics of these characters are that they serve as the final boss and have divine powers, whether it be from birth or it was bestowed on them. They also usually have a cult following led by the games Gharnef . These characters would be: 

Medeus (FE 1/3/11/12)

Duma (FE 2/15)

Idunn (FE 6)

Fomortiis (FE 8)

Ashera (FE 10)

Grima (FE 13)

Anankos (FE 14)

Rhea (FE 16, Crimson Flower)

Nemesis (FE 16, Verdant Wind)

I'd also consider Loptous but he's fought as the possessor of Julius and not as a physical entity. Also there's the Fire Dragon that Nergal summons at the end of FE7 but it's just a generic dragon and wasn't worshipped by Nergal (even though he's a dragon fanatic). I doubt they fall under the requirements given but maybe Hel and Freyja work too, seeing as they are divine beings fought at the end of their respective books. There may be others from TS and TMS#FE but I am pretty much completely unfamiliar with those games. Also the cult follower being the Gharnef conflicts with a few of them

Cheggerspartyquiz (talk) 02:12, September 22, 2020 (UTC)

Since you gave specifics, let's breakdown the list based on your description:

1. Final Boss. Okay, they all qualify

2. Divine Powers

• Medeus is an absurdly powerful Earth Dragon. He is wholly separated from the Divine Dragon tribe as shown by Naga, Tiki, and Nagi.
• Duma fits, though his powers are more founded in his degeneration rather than his divine powers. It's enough to give it a pass.

Idunn is a Demon Dragon and is once again wholly separate from the Divine Dragon Fae's abilities as one.

Formortiis is a Demon, but I guess depending on your definition of Divine can pass.

Ashera is a straight up Goddess so it fits.

Grima is a synthetic creation and is shown to be rooted in dark magic more so than the divine dragon material used for his creation.

Anankos is like Duma, though it is unclear if he is of divine nature, though he is powerful and world shaping so I give him a pass.

Rhea is to an extent enough to give her a soft pass.

Nemesis stole Sothis's power, but I'd give him a soft pass at best.

3. Cult following and/or a Gharnef

• Medeus is sort of, he has the literal Gharnef as his Gharnef and he has additional followers. He does not have a named cult, but its enough to give it a pass.
• Duma has Jedah and the Duma Faithful so it checks off all boxes.
• Idunn only really has Zephiel as she is crucial for his schemes, but there is no cult nor any Gharnef in this game, so no pass.
• Formortiis has Riev so that fits, but aside from the controlled Lyon there is no one else really doing anything related to Formortiis in terms of the enemies aside from the monsters. So a half pass, but not the strongest pass.
• Ashera has Sephiran for her Gharnef and Ashera's Chosen can be considered her cult so that passes.
• Grima has Validar and the Grimleal so that passes solidly.
• Anankos doesn't really have a cult aside two followers Garon and Anthony. Everyone else (Sumeragi, Mikoto, Arete, and Gunter) is being controlled by him so its not really a cult. Also Iago, the closest to being the Gharnef of Fates is only loyal to Garon and is aligned with Anankos by extension, so this is hard to justify.
• Rhea is a bizarre one as can you call the Church of Seiros a cult? Maybe in the Crimson Flower but otherwise it isn't one in my opinion. Also who would her Gharnef be? The Gharnefs of fates are Thales and Solon and their goals directly opposes Rhea, so this is a no.
• Nemesis is more of a means to an end for the goals of those who slither in the dark. He's just the lucky bandit that they used for their plans. They do not worship him so yeah, they are a cult of sorts, but he is not their entity of worship if they even have one.

So in short, there are some consistencies but some are one or the other. Divine needs a more specific definition here otherwise it is too loose to qualify. The cult is also quite inconsistent especially for Idunn, Anankos, Rhea, and Nemesis as the former two have no real cult. Rhea is a soft pass as the Church of Serios can be quite fanatical as seen in game, but Nemesis has no following, he's just a tool.

In its current state it is insufficient. Also we have discussed this topic many times in the past. Like the "Marth" Archetype we are purposefully trying to avoid doing the "Main Protagonist" archetype and the "Main Antagonist" archetype as they are the most obvious.-Nauibotics (talk) 04:23, September 22, 2020 (UTC)