Better opening quoteEdit

Should we stick with the current one or use "Both sides of time are revealed to you. What shall you do?" Are You Serious (talk) 08:32, June 16, 2019 (UTC)

Personally, I like the current quote because it gives us a taste of her personality. Plus, may as well not get too fixated on the quote since we're only about a month away from the game and I'm sure we'll get a better one once we can dig into the game.-Nauibotics (talk) 11:43, June 16, 2019 (UTC)

Was Sothis actually killed by Nemesis and the Agarthans?Edit

Something I've been wondering is that Rhea has two different stories to tell about Sothis being taken by Nemesis. During Silver Snow, after rescuing Rhea, she states that Nemesis and his bandits stole Sothis's "remains" from the Holy Tomb. And during Verdant Wind, Rhea states that Sothis fell into a "deep slumber". But the thing is, "sleep" in regards to dragons can very well indicate "death", as we have Duma and Mila, who have died but are simply regarded to have fallen to sleep. 

So it doesn't seem that Sothis was killed by Nemesis as she slept, but died after healing the continent and then Nemesis took her remains and turned those remains into a weapon.

Omegaxis1 (talk) 23:19, December 1, 2019 (UTC)

Pretty sure it was outright stated that Sothis went to sleep to recover her strength. Same thing that Cethleann/Flayn did. Nemesis then killed her and stole her remains.Sentinel07 (talk) 23:41, December 1, 2019 (UTC)

  • Nope. I checked the scenes. Rhea states that Sothis, after healing the continent, "fell into a long slumber in the Holy Tomb." In both Verdant Wind and Silver Snow, she states that Nemesis had stolen Sothis's remains. Never once was it ever stated that Sothis was "killed" or anything of the like. This makes it seem clear that Sothis died from healing the land. Omegaxis1 (talk) 00:53, December 2, 2019 (UTC)
The trouble with that theory is that Nabateans also enter a death-like sleep to heal, and thus I don't think we can say it is "clear" Sothis died from healing Fodlan. Plus a "long slumber" is pretty different from a permanent slumber, i.e. death. That said, the fact that Rhea never says Nemesis killed her mother, but does repeatedly point to how he slaughtered her people in the Red Canyon, could be seen as evidence that Sothis was indeed in some sense not "alive" at the time. At the very least, what Nemesis did in the Red Canyon seems to have been the more important crime to Rhea. Perentie (talk) 02:08, December 2, 2019 (UTC)Perentie

But as I said, Rhea specifically states that Nemesis had stolen Sothis's "remains" which would not make sense at all under normal circumstances. I think any wiki pages here that mention that Nemesis "kills" Sothis should be edited to say what the game says. Also, I'll ask friends about the JP dialogue as well, due to how there's been a lot of mistranslations in this game. Omegaxis1 (talk) 13:28, December 2, 2019 (UTC)

Rhea wouldn't be seeking revenge for Sothis if she were already dead. That's part of the beginning cutscene. KainDarkfire (talk) 06:23, December 31, 2019 (UTC)

No, she would. She worships her mother. Nemesis broke into the Holy Tomb, stole Sothis's remains, and had said remains be fashioned into a weapon. Such a thing is something that Rhea could never tolerate. She could handle Byleth doing it since he was the vessel that was to become Sothis. But the moment that Byleth protected Edelgard, she went ballistic and considered him the same as Nemesis. Plus, she also does want revenge for the slaughter of her brethren in the Red Canyon. Omegaxis1 (talk) 16:19, December 31, 2019 (UTC)

We can't just assume that the "deep sleep" mentioned in the game is the same as the "sleep" into which Duma and Mila fell after they were slain. For one thing, we don't even know if the same rules that govern the Manaketes apply to the Nabateans. Based on what we see in the games, it's clear that, while they have some similarities, there are differences. Manaketes, for example, never showed the ability to create offspring from their blood the way Sothis did. I don't think there is enough evidence to change the article based on speculation. Even if it isn't stated outright that she was murdered by Nemesis, it is heavily implied. As for Rhea's motivations, it's pretty clear that the death of her mother affected her far more than the deaths of the other Nabateans. She is obsessed with bringing her mother back, which is her primary goal during Part 1. Toolen (talk) 05:23, January 18, 2020 (UTC)

I would argue that saying that Nemesis killed her is a bigger speculation, because as I stated, both in Verdant Wind and Silver Snow, Rhea explicitly states that Nemesis had stolen Sothis's "remains", not kill. I am keeping to what the game itself states. Saying that Nemesis had killed her is what people are speculating, but it isn't what Rhea had said. Keep in mind that Sothis was in the Holy TOMB, which had no other name for it, unlike Zanado/Ren Canyon. This very much does imply that Sothis was already dead when she died. Also, despite there being differences with Manaketes, there are still very much similarities, so I would say that it would still fit, hence why it's in the trivia section. Omegaxis1 (talk) 21:11, January 18, 2020 (UTC)

It is called the Holy Tomb because it was said that her children were laid to rest there, not just the Goddess. Furthermore, we do not know whether it had a different name in the past, though based upon the fact that there is a throne and part of the room looks very much like a throne room, it may well have once gone by a different name. In fact, it would make sense that the chamber would be the throne room of the Goddess. There is a part in the game where a character ponders why Garreg Mach was built where it was because, while it is true that in the present it sits in the center of the three nations, the monastery itself predates the establishment of the Kingdom and the Alliance, implying that there was another reason why it was built where it was, and not in the capital of the Empire which had been established with the aid of Seiros. It seems likely that the monastery was built around the remains of the throne of Sothis, near Zanado, with the throne room converted into a tomb where the hearts of Sothis and her children were buried, though obviously Rhea kept the heart of Sothis in the hopes of resurrecting her. There is also the fact that Rhea is constantly talking about how Nemesis and his followers betrayed and HURT her mother. That would imply that she was attacked, rather than merely dying from exhaustion after restoring the land. You cannot hurt one who is already dead. You can desecrate their remains, but you can't hurt them. Toolen (talk) 20:33, January 19, 2020 (UTC)

You basically confirmed my point. It is called the Holy Tomb cause there were other children there just pushes the point that it was a TOMB, meaning that Sothis being placed there means she dies. And again, if it had a different name they would have mentioned it, but Rhea calls it the Holy Tomb and just that. They make it a point that if it had different names, they mention it, as they did with Zanado and the Red Canyon. Even the Holy Tomb would have been given a different name had that been the case. But it is called just that and never any other name only pushes the point that it was just a tomb, and nothing else. Also, find me the quote where Rhea says that they hurt her mother. Rhea in CF states that they betrayed her mother, yes, but that's not the same as saying hurt her. And you still have yet to actually refute my point over how Rhea explicitly states in VW/SS that Nemesis stole Sothis's REMAINS. No matter how you look at it, that VERY MUCH implies that Sothis was already dead.Omegaxis1 (talk) 02:16, January 20, 2020 (UTC)

  • Okay, I found the quote, with Rhea raving about how they wish to betray and hurt her mother and herself. But given the literal fact that Sothis's remains was fashioned into a weapon, that's still something that can be defined as "hurting" someone. Desecrating the remains of someone, turning them into some tool, that's very much something that can be the same. Also, Rhea in Chapter 18 of CF is already crossed the line of insanity that she blames all of humanity now. So saying that humans "hurt her mother" is already subject to question in regards to accuracy. This is the same woman that even in her sane mind believed that the Agarthans would target Byleth, but the dialogue in the JP version and actions imply the Rhea is their most hated enemy, not Sothis. Omegaxis1 (talk) 02:21, January 20, 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't imply anything of the sort. Also, you cannot just dismiss what Rhea says because she has gone insane. She doesn't just spout random nonsense. In her eyes, the events of the CF route is just history repeating itself, and Byleth is a second Nemesis. Nemesis betrayed and killed her mother, and now Byleth betrayed and is trying to kill her. I also don't need to refute your point because Nemesis DID steal her remains after killing her. He killed Sothis as she slept on the throne, then stole her remains. No one is arguing that her remains were not stolen after she died. I still see no evidence that the sleep of Sothis was any different from the Flayn's slumber when she was recovering from her injuries. As for the Holy Tomb, we don't know if it went by a previous name. Just because the game gave us the Red Canyon's former name doesn't mean that Zanado was the only location with a name that change. Furthermore, they do not state it was just a tomb. Quite the opposite, in fact. Rhea explicitly says that Sothis once sat on the throne. She wasn't placed there. She sat on the throne. Finally, in regard to the Agarthans, of course Rhea is their most hated enemy. She's alive. Sothis is dead. She's been taken care of. Rhea is one of the last of the Nabateans, and she is the most powerful. She is the only one that can still transform from human to dragon and vice versa. The others are stuck in either human or dragon form. She's obviously the biggest threat. Toolen (talk) 06:40, January 20, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, keep in mind that Rhea also keeps saying that Byleth "stole" her mother just like Nemesis did, which again, basically makes it clear that Nemesis did not kill Sothis, but stole her corpse, which I checked, is actually what Rhea says in the JP version, meaning that Nemesis stole Sothis's corpse from the Holy Tomb. In the end, all efforts to state that Nemesis "killed" Sothis is speculation. What the game states explicitly is that Nemesis stole her remains. Not kill Sothis. Stole Sothis's remains. As for the Holy Tomb, once again, if it had another name before, they would have mentioned it. But they don't. And Rhea saying that the Agarthans would want to target is her saying that Sothis is their most hated enemy, when that is false, as it has and always is Rhea, which actually puts into question about whether her story of the Agarthans is even true. Omegaxis1 (talk) 15:45, January 20, 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot of inconsistency if they laid her 'remains' at the Holy Tomb.  Namely that her place was on a throne, which is super symbolic in the game and referenced countless times, and second, that they made the Holy Masoleum to lay her weapon form to rest for a 'second' time if that were the case. Also; the Holy Tomb having changed in purpose and name makes a more sense.  The deaths of her progeny in Zanado and therefor the crest stones didn't exist when she 'died' the first time.  The massacre happened AFTER TwSinD turned her into the Sword of the Creator in a bid for more power. KainDarkfire (talk) 16:27, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

But what you're saying is simply speculation. What we do know is that she was placed in the Holy Tomb and that Nemesis had stolen her remains/corpse. Her being killed by Nemesis and the Holy Tomb having a different name is the speculation. Omegaxis1 (talk) 22:25, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

And you're not? I've been going over the dialogue from the game, including the dialogue for both Verdant Wind and Silver Snow, to see of there is any validity to your arguments. While it does indeed state that Nemesis stoke her remains, I see no evidence that indicates that was all he did. In fact, all evidence I've found points to the contrary. All the references to betrayal, hurt, and Rhea's obvious grudge against humanity for what they did to her mother indicate that Nemesis was responsible for the death of Sothis, stealing her remains afterwards. It seems I'm not the only one to come to this conclusion based on the evidence, and you're the only one arguing to the contrary. The profile should be restored to its previous version. Toolen (talk) 18:51, January 31, 2020 (UTC)

Oh, you want to play that game? Okay, here's the literal proof of actual dialogue from the game that Rhea herself states. Know that you brought this upon yourself: Chapter 20 of Verdant Wind: 

  • Rhea: Nemesis was originally the leader of a group of bandits. He plundered the Holy Tomb and stole the remains of the progenitor god. When Nemesis appeared in Zanado some time later, he already wielded the Sword of the Creator.

Chapter 19 of Silver Snow:

  • Rhea: Nemesis was originally the leader of a group of bandits. He plundered the Holy Tomb and stole the remains of the progenitor god. When Nemesis appeared in Zanado some time later, he already wielded the Sword of the Creator.

Exact same line.

Both times, states that Nemesis stole the remains of the progenitor god. Not ONCE does she state that Nemesis kills her. At all. 

So no, what I have here is direct and concrete proof that Nemesis never killed Sothis. Omegaxis1 (talk) 00:27, February 2, 2020 (UTC)

I'm not playing any game, and you've proven absolutely nothing. That is the exact same quote twice. You are basing your entire argument on ONE QUOTE, and it isn't even proof of anything. Toolen (talk) 10:01, February 2, 2020 (UTC)

Omegaxis1 has provided evidence that Nemesis may not have killed Sothis, can you provide evidence showcasing that he did? Are You Serious (talk) 17:44, February 2, 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. The fact remains is that there is direct statement from Rhea herself that indicate that Nemesis stole her remains, not never once was it that he had killed her. Omegaxis1 (talk) 22:27, February 2, 2020 (UTC)

I feel like using Rhea's version of events- someone who has blatantly been altering history of the past thousand years to fit her needs throughout each route she's relevant in, is not much in the way of proof.  Jeralt, Seteth, and in the one extreme case, not even Catherine trust in her completely. KainDarkfire (talk) 12:38, February 6, 2020 (UTC)

How have I not provided evidence? All he has is one quote, while I have referenced multiple quotes. Toolen (talk) 01:07, February 9, 2020 (UTC)

If you require further evidence, I can provide it. Let's start with the only quote he has to support his claim. In that scene, Rhea is answering the questions of those that rescue. However, even in pitiful state, it is clear that she is still keeping secrets from the protagonists. For one thing, in the Golden Wind route (it might be the same in the Silver Snow route, but I would have to check again), she says she has no idea how Nemesis got the Sword of the Creator, yet it seems pretty obvious when she kills Nemesis in the beginning that she knows exactly what the Sword of the Creator and where it came from. She lovingly embraces it and calls it "mother". Obviously, Rhea is lying once again. KainDarkFire is right: not even the characters in the game that are loyal to her trust her completely. She's secretive to the end, refusing to divulge all of her secrets even when is weak and dependent on the others to help her. Toolen (talk) 01:29, February 9, 2020 (UTC)

In a subsequent chapter in the Golden Deer route, Rhea even days that Sothis BUILT the Holy Tomb to protect her children. Assuming that is the truth and not another one of her lies, that means that the Holy Tomb was built while Sothis and her children were still alive. She states that Sothis built the tomb "to protect her children from the evil light." Claude even theorizes that the children of the goddess lived in Zanado just to be close to the holy tomb, which Rhea confirms in the final chapter (when she finally reveals who she is and some of her history), stating that they wished to protect it while Sothis slept. The tomb is starting to sound more like a fortress considering the fact that it was built to protect people who were very much alive. That would also explain why there is a throne in it. Toolen (talk) 01:58, February 9, 2020 (UTC)

None of that is evidence that Nemesis killed Sothis. What I need from you is to provide something from the game that explicitly states that Nemesis or the Argarthians killed Sothis. Lines suggesting Rhea isn't completely trustworthy is not relevant to the issue. So although it's probable that Nemesis killed her, unless you can get definitive proof, I think we're better off leaving it vague Are You Serious (talk) 03:11, February 9, 2020 (UTC)
Which is exactly what I've been saying and what I did very much write. I only wrote in the profile what was explicitly stated. Not ONCE was it ever stated that Sothis had been "killed" by either Nemesis or the Agarthans. But it was stated that Nemesis had stolen her remains, which definitely implies that she had already been dead. Omegaxis1 (talk) 19:28, February 9, 2020 (UTC)
We'll be seeing shortly if this side story adds any information.  Until then, refuting weak evidence and providing the fact that the strongest evidence of her non-death by Fodlan's reformation/overexhausting her powers is there being a throne for her to sleep on in the Holy Tomb, which again is a very central iconolgy in the game, and not a coffin or altar for her body. The real situation is that it wasn't originally designed to be a tomb at all, unlike the Holy Masoleum that held her sword-ifed remains later on.  Instead was repurposed to house all of the crest stones for Zanado's fallen, with both locations being renamed to obscure the truth and keep the humans blind to their own history, because none of Sothis's children seem to trust them. KainDarkfire (talk) 06:00, February 12, 2020 (UTC)


Byleth didn't have a heartbeat because of the crest though? There were other complications that were going to be fatal for Byleth from what I understood, but the heartbeat thing was certainly the Crest, confirmed by Sothis herself first, then later at the end of Crimson's cutscene. KainDarkfire (talk) 06:23, December 31, 2019 (UTC)

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